Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by jobberone, Jun 27, 2013.
Misery likes company.
This make no sense at all....but, I consider the source.
It's what ended the season. And I remember thinking that I hope Romo doesn't throw an interception. And sure enough he did. I never thought about that with Staubach and Aikman. I knew they would bring us back. Romo is a good QB but I just don't trust him in big games.
And fair or not, a lot of fans follow your train of thought. He is a good QB, very good at times, but he just hasn't won that "it" game yet.
The point is simple. These types of threads that continue to be posted with stats galore are an attempt to persuade others. All the talk about this is a discussion seems odd since it is the same discussion had over and over about this one player. I pretty much believe people will continue with their opinions until this is settled by a championship or retirement of this one player.
So while there are those that complain to the management about the Jerry Threads causing a rule and banning to commense because of the debate, so too do some of us tire of the Romo threads.
Now the reply, and one you surely used in your comment was simply put in my own words ignore them.
But that wasn't so with the Jerry threads, was it? The big guy had to come down from on high and tell the Jerry is Satan set not to do that any longer. Even though I can make a rational case against the owner GM whose name will never be mentioned is the one of the poorest owners and the poorest GM.
But those comments are verboten here.
But what I find more interesting is your comments last week that you stopped coming here because of the quality of posts. Your refined sensibilities were assaulted by the rabble that didn't discuss things you wished to discuss, or in the way you wanted them discussed.
Now I certainly enjoy your being here, but it seems a little hypocritical of you to do a drive by, have your say and tell me off, then head for the high country at Hostile's Playhouse where it is safe and the quality is such that you are not offended.
The bandwidth comment was a joke. Your sense of humor has apparently been misplaced since your move to other climes, ole buddy.
Yet, is right. But, it seems that some posters that just seemed to give up on a QB like Romo.
I guess we get to see this coming season,
Please stop keep the arguing from becoming personal.
The "Ignore" feature works really well... so's you know.
It's going on 8 years. How much longer should we give him?
Yeah, that whole scenario was strange. But it goes a long way in proving how important the RZ is. Everyone knows its important but that article brought a better perspective for me. I never understood Zimmer's defense but it makes a lot more sense to me now. I still think good Ds get off the field more and give up less points so I don't think they had a good D but again they did when it mattered. And without looking back at the article or stats I think they had a high rate of TDs in the RZ. It was a fluke season but the RZ point remains valid.
We do it because you're not capable of seeing it for yourself. Hate consumes people and they become bitter. We're actually trying to make you a better person by showing you that your hate for Romo is misguided.
Only the one's who can't see the forest because of the trees. The rest of us have moved on and are anticipating another great, inspiring, gutsy performing year from our QB.
Well seems the thread made a right turn.
I keep hearing from some these threads are started to show Romo unfettered love and to change people's minds. The OP clearly states why it was a kool article and most of the early conversation was centered on that. The topic spilled over to other QBs and teams since the article applies to all QBs.
It's not important that I started the thread. And this thread is not important enough to try and protect or defend. What's important is the same people seem to want to muck up threads (whether the topic is Romo or whatever) they can with arguments which are full of cognitive distortions to begin with. Then the personal stuffs starts between posters. I find this all discouraging and I'm beginning to wonder if that isn't the mission of some.
You question why this thread keeps coming up? Why do the "pro-romo" crowd feel a necessity to prove the doubters wrong? I think it goes further than proving the doubters wrong. I think it more entails finding other problems with the team so that we could discuss how to fix those. Clearly Romo is going no where, so why waste the time discussing how bad he is? It's complaining just to complain and that gets so annoying. The problem is whenever people do find a different way to interpret the data presented and the season(s) of how they were compiled, they immediately get shot down as "twisted numbers" "skewed data" "numbers that aren't important" because they don't have a W-L column next to them, which itself is a very empty statistic left for everybody to interpret any way they wish. You bring up the defense, "so and so did it without a defense" You bring up the line "so and so did without the line or a running game" which leaves only one person to blame, at that is Romo. So although nobody is saying "it's all Romo's fault" the way some people encounter every thread that attempts to spark a discussion that details other deficiencies on the team, is evidence that shows otherwise.
So my question is, why do the exact same culprits feel the need to go into every thread that attempts to spark a discussion outside of "Romo-sucks, not ah!" and make sure it becomes that? Are you trying to convince the others something that they don't claim? Just as you claim "I never stated it's all Romo's fault" nobody is claiming that none of it is Romo's fault. Also, when will give the Redskins credit for some good pressure up the middle and to get in position to get the pick in the end? That was a great play on their part!
The best thing here is to come to a clear understanding of where people are coming from. We're all fans. Nobody is more "real" than the next guy when it comes to being a fan, because quite simply unless you are getting some kind of compensation out of the organization, it's all unreal. But that is the point of being a fan.
I have always looked at football understanding that yes, QB is the most important position on the field, especially in today's game. But I also realize even then it is dependent on scheme played, division, level of competition during the season, but also competing organizations strength of schedules and division. For me, Romo does not need an All-Star team to win (as Lebron did). He needs either the offense to be ran efficiently or the defense to step up make plays throughout the season(not just week 17). By an efficient offense, I mean one that either has the correct personnel to run it correctly or a head coach to make the right in-game adjustments to make up for the lack of correct personnel. From my understanding, from every where I've read one of the key components to this offense is strong protection upfront. That has not happened, although it did improve as the season went on last year. This year I still don't feel enough has been done in this area, as I would have added at least one vet to help up front with the young lineman. With that being said, with the change of play-calling, I am hoping that could help offset that lack of experience and talent, along with the progression in skill from those we drafted last year, this year, and guys just making strides in their advancement like Ronald Leary. Given the right mindset and will to succeed, I don't see why these guys can't take that next step. The skills positions are fine, as I believe we are quite fortunate in this area, but it can be useless if we can't get the ball to them. So here is to hoping if it looks like struggle in the beginning for the offense and the line, Callahan could make the correct in-game adjustments to succeed. Oh yeah, and that whole run game thing.
If the line does not step-up and the adjustments are not happening that need to be, then the defense is going to have to make some serious strides this year. The last two years at 8-8 has been hard for all of us, but I am of the nature that had we had HALF of those injuries not happen, especially with Sean Lee and Carter, I personally feel that is the difference between an 8 and 10 win season. I'd like to think that Lee and Carter are such improvements over what they were replaced with last year, otherwise we are in more trouble than we thought. As far as this year goes, everything is still up in the air and we will not get a good look at how potentially effective it will be until training camp comes around. But given certain traits and abilities and performances in OTAs(Reed, Magee), I think the boys have done a good job adding some young depth with some play-making abilities (given in college). Couple this with the addition of Durant to play the SAM position, they should be good in this department, but we'll see. Safety is still up in the air for me. Church has the potential to do well, but we need a larger sample to judge, Matt Johnson is still an unknown but kind of rookie given the circumstance, plus he had some game in college. Wilcox wasn't my first choice but he has grown on me from some write-ups on him during OTAs and reading his scouting report. I'm actually excited to see how Jakar Hamilton performs in training camp, as he could be a hidden gem picked up as an UDFA. Safety is definitely the biggest question mark with a lot of potential, it's just matter of if it can turn kinetic. The line seemed a bit weird to me, but I am mostly okay with it given the DL coach who was hired in Marinelli. I have total faith in him helping the linemen succeed. Given the amount of moaning and groaning over coaches and their ability to motivate and have players follow them, we have the best at that position in the league and there is no doubt in my mind with Ware, Spencer, and Ratliff along with Marinelli's coaching, they could flourish in this defense. Then there is Kiffin. Struggled at USC, is held in high regard in the league for his 4-3 Under, and from what I read, runs a pretty simplistic approach on defense. I think given the simplicity, the vets we have, and most importantly good health, I think the defense is on their way to big things this year, which totally helps out the offense if they can create turnovers and even get in the redzone.
Lastly, we all want the team to succeed, and we will all root for them to do so. I don't think "Romo" errr....the Cowboys can't win, I just don't think all the pieces have been there for them, and the cards just have not fell their way. Here is to hoping the line steps up, or the defense gets GOOD.
Given the OP and where we are today going into the season, yes Romo flubbed it at times not only in the last game, but also earlier in the season, the surrounding parts are going to have to take a step forward and come to play with Romo, Dez, and Witten on Sundays.
Also, just for S**** and Giggles... hehehe And I am not saying he as good as Manning or better, just comparing the struggles they both faced and the adversity they both went through. Obviously the Colts eventually won, but if Manning does not win that one SB, that one year, does he remove himself from "Arguably" the best to toss it to just another QB??? I know EVERYBODY likes to argue it's the QB who is responsible for all wins and losses, but that does not make the argument valid. But given the coach he had, the line in front of him, I would say he let his team down more than Romo has at times, but I still believe PM is the better "classical" QB.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Peyton Manning Syndrome
This one is familiar...lol
Manning's team won in their 8th season together.
This is Romo's 8th season. Maaaaaaaaaaybbbbbbbbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. lol
Also, I did not proof this because, you know, I didn't want to. lol
Your rant here is WAY overstating how I feel and certainly not anywhere close to anything I've posted.
I think that looking at what makes a quality QB goes beyond looking to see who won the SB or who made a mistake in this or that game. And when you do, you see that Romo's statistics paint a picture of him clearly being in that upper echelon. He has top 10 numbers indisputably. Indisputably.
Now personally, I could care less who considers him top 5, top 3, top 8, whatever. I understand it gets more subjective there.
I resist when posts try to paint me as extreme when my posts are anything but. And I particularly resist it when posters do so with their own extreme statements like... twisting stats, mistakes never rest with Romo, and that Romo must "drastically change his game and attitude as a leader of the team" when none of those statements can be remotely backed up.
Put Romo on Baltimore or San Fran last year and they are just as good, if not better. Put Colin K or Joey Flacco on Dallas and they become sub .500 teams, real talk.
Again, you can play with stats all you want and say statistically he is top 10. That is fine, but just know stats are not the end all be all of how good a QB is. It's only one indicator of many. How does he deal with adversity? Does he motivate his teammates? Does he speak up when he doesn't like the play calling? Does he demand a better Oline? Can he be counted on in do or die games? Does his teammates have faith in him not to screw up in big games?
Romo does need to drastically change his game and attitude as the leader of this team if he plans on leading it deep into the playoffs. He needs to stop hiking the ball with zero seconds on the clock which allows the defense to get a jump on the oline, he needs to stop throwing off his back foot, he needs to learn how to take a sack when necessary, he needs to learn how to throw the ball away when necessary, he needs to learn how to protect the ball better, he needs to step up and lead in big games instead of being the week link. So far, he hasn't made these changes and we are going on year 8 and he is 33 years old. Is he capable of making them? I sure hope so. I also hope the team gets stronger around him and we can finally have some success winning the division and going deep in the playoffs.
Sure, I understand these are my opinions and you disagree. That is fine, if my opinion bothers you too much you can always put me on ignore.
Yesterday, in a post titled "Judging NFL QBs By The Company They Keep", we took a look at games in which currently active NFL QBs recorded a passer rating of 100.0 or more, compared W/L records in those games and looked at 100+ rating games as a percentage of games started.
Now the bolded italics above is the title of the base article and Mythbusting is the title of the thread which made it germane to the Fan Zone rather than the less visited NFL zone. But despite this and the tone of thread initially which was to discuss how you might could use that analysis to look at the quality of QBs and their supporting cast, how it applies not only to Romo but to other QBs in the NFL, a discussion about Luck and the Colts, and more data on the rest of the league, you and others totally discarded this and went right into the bash Romo because of his lack of perceived intangibles, emotional reasoning, lack of SB wins yada. When this is countered with sound argument you and others brush that aside and continue to pound. And it's thread after thread. It's difficult not to start wondering about peoples motives since I'm reasonably certain intellect is not the problem. All this makes it problematic at times to have a reasonable discussion on this site. Can you see that side of the equation at all?
And of course your opinions are respected on this site whether they are validated by others or not.
Yes, I see that side of the equation and agree, but how do we move past that? You are a big fan of Romo and have a difficult time if someone is critical of him and immediately take the side of those who support him vs. those who are critical of him. This thread was nothing more than a can of worms. The original author that wrote that article was a big Romo supporter and he bent over backwards to provide some statistics to "prove" it is not Romo and is instead the players around him. These threads pop up all the time around here, it is either from a die hard Romo fan or it is from a die hard Romo hater. Each trying to make a thread to persuade the other side. They all end up the exact same way.. the Romo lovers bashing the haters and the haters bashing the lovers. I personally don't bash/attack anyone, I just simply state my opinion. That is exactly what I did on this thread. I said that I had already read the article and it did nothing to change my mind about him and then I was IMMEDIATELY personally attacked by a Romo fan. Was the article not written to try to persuade people that Romo is not the problem here and instead it is the team around him?
I've noticed you bring up "intentional motive" a few times now and I feel that is a direct personal attack. I don't have any motives or agendas, I just have an opinion. The reason this was written on the Cowboys blog in the first place had nothing to do with honestly comparing these QB's objectively, but rather to look for a reason to prop up Romo compared with other QB's and his team.
Ok, maybe I have a better understanding. First, you're making assumptions that are not true. While I'm a fan of Romo and I view his talent as elite and almost unique, I still see his flaws and I've been pointing them out since 2006. And I do not take sides personally. Well, I try not to and I'm generally successful at it to be entirely accurate. I do take exception when good threads (again it makes no difference who started them....I don't start many) are derailed.
The fact you view this thread as a can of worms is damning and I chose that word carefully. Perhaps the original author is a big Romo fan. But the stats are what they are and while I admitted I didn't know if they were predictive or not I also stated I had trouble finding fault with them. Most here have been reflective on the topic rather than aggressive.
I certainly don't have an emotive reason to defend Romo nor am I interested in changing someone's mind. That seems to be coming from you, Two Deep and others who are ascribing personal motives to the purpose of a thread when in fact for most, including myself, there are none. Perhaps this is projection. I'm not attacking you. But when a member constantly enters threads that are productive and reduces them to rubble then I think I'm reasonably entitled to at least entertain the thought they are doing so intentionally. I'm not a mind reader so I cannot possibly accuse someone of actually derailing a thread on purpose. But you are partially responsible for derailing this one so perhaps you'd like to explain, since we're having this discussion in full public view rather than PMs, why threads like this devolve to the point people are getting dinged for personal attacks, and/or the thread is closed, and/or we're having this discussion instead of the benefits and possible problems with using particular stats to evaluate QBs and their teams.
Both sides are passionate about their positions on the topic. It is the most talked about aspect of the Cowboys since the end of the 2012 season. You've got to expect heated emotions from each side. Romo had a horrible game in the Washington game. You can definitely argue that he was responsible for the loss. Those picks were heart breaking and ended the season. But those of us who believe in Romo see that his performance is a direct result of the rest of the team's play. He had to try and do too much to make up for deficiencies in the rest of the team. It was the same the whole season. The fact that his stats are as good as they were is a testament to his leadership and physical skills. It takes a team to win a championship. Not just a good QB.