next year we are a complete team

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Nunez21, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    I'm sorry but that's obscured to say Garrett is getting more out of this team than he should when you look at the talent this team has especially at QB and the skill positions. Talk to most experts and they'll tell you the Cowboys consistently underachieve every year. The team has all the pieces to contend for a championship but the Cowboys are a dysfunctional organization that year after year doesn't receive solid coaching. Jerry fires Ryan and he goes over to NO where they had statistically one of the worst defenses in history and he has them playing like a solid unit this season. While the Cowboys have gone from bad to worse bringing old man Kiffen and his tampa 2 here. The Saints were a totally disorganized team last year without Sean Payton and now with him back in the fold they're right back to contending for a SB again.

    As for the Chiefs if their only problem was terrible offensive play and their QB situation they wouldn't have made a head coaching change. They needed a QB, direction and some solid coaching from a proven HC. KC ranked 20th in defense last season which was one spot worse than the Cowboys while this season their defense ranks 5th. Had Andy Reid come to Dallas the Cowboys would be where the Chiefs are now instead of continuing to spin their wheels under Garrett. While the Chiefs are competing for a SB this season the Cowboys will be trying to get over 500 for the first time in 4 years..
  2. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    I don't get the feeling that you read everything that I posted.

    I've posted detailed spreadsheets in past years that showed why the following year would be manageable, yet many people here couldn't understand it.

    Spencer has no affect on the future cap. His 10.6M has all been accounted for this year.

    The Cowboys have been adding multiple rookies to the team each year. With the new CBA, rookie contracts are small and drastically smaller than they were in the past.

    There is some dead-money every year when players are cut; however, there is also dead-money that hit the previous year's cap that is now gone.

    Players like Ratliff will be replaced with a draft pick. The cost of the draft's pick's salary combined with the dead money from Ratliff's contract will basically be a break-even compared to keeping Ratliff. The dead-money will remain on the cap for 2 years, yet the rookie will be on his rookie salary for 4 years.

    I see the Cowboys getting 2 of the following in the next draft, DT, DE and Guard. If they get 2 of 3, then they only need to sign 1 in Free Agency. My guess is that they draft DLine and sign a Free Agent Guard. It's possible that the Free Agent Guard could be Waters. Austin will likely be replaced by T. Williams and a rookie WR will be added. Do they need anything else?

    It seems that all of the sky-is-falling issues come down to whether or not they can afford to sign 1 Free Agent which would probably be a Guard. All of the other positions appear to be covered with existing players and 1st and 2nd round draft picks.
  3. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    It's not even close to that amount.

    2012 #1 Andrew Luck 4 years/22.1M
    2013 #1 Eric Fisher 4 years/22.1M

    2012 #4 Matt Kalil 4 years/19.7M
    2013 #4 Lane Johnson 4 years/19.8M
  4. rocyaice

    rocyaice Well-Known Member

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    Those same "experts" don't watch the Cowboys as much as I do or any fans of the Cowboys do. They see highlights and see "names" and determine we're more talented than most teams in the league. The Chiefs had 6 Pro Bowlers last season with 2 wins. A 2 win team had more Pro Bowlers than us.........which goes back to the point that the Chiefs were simply a bad offensive team with the worst quarterback in the league and a terrible offensive line. You don't find many 2 win teams who have a top 10 Cornerback, top 5 running back, top 10 linebacker, top 5 safety....and this is a 2 win team.....

    In regards to Rob Ryan, he has a bunch of guys overachieving just like he did here last season when Bruce Carter, Barry Church, Sean Lee, Ratliff, etc. all got hurt. He coaches much better with overachievers than he does with solid guys. Or that's what it seems like if you compare his trip here to what he did with the Browns and now with the Aint's.

    Like I stated earlier, we are the biggest victims of overrating this teams talent. EVERY TEAM is talented. Do you think the Giants are 0-6 because they lack talent?

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't disputer that this is an issue across the entire league. However, in no small part due to many of the issue discussed in this thread, we have compounded that problem on this team 4x. I agree with you, it is simply too costly to sign Big Time QB contracts long term. Many posters translate this into some kind of Romo Hate but it's simply the economics of the thing. How do San Fran and Seattle and us, for a long time, continue to acquire talent and still stay under the cap? They don't have over priced QBs. I expect the tomatoes to start sailing in any second here.
    These kinds of contracts kill the cap.

    Two QBs, both over priced IMO but it is what it is. Paying a back up the kind of money we are paying Orton is a luxury, unless you are in it for a Championship possibility. We should know soon if that is us or not. If it's not, I think we should move on from Orton and make it a priority to develop a kid while bringing in a cheaper options. OL is something we can make better if we simply continue to draft well and make good decisions. Water's is long in the tooth so we will have to figure something out there but he can be here for 2, maybe three years. That should really be plenty of time to develop depth. LBs are what they are. The scheme is really more problematic where that is concerned IMO. Not every LB can play this scheme so that makes it a little more difficult. DL is all our own doing. I don't buy the whole, we could not have known argument with Spencer. I believe that injury was around and we simply didn't do the home work. Micro Fracture, as I understand it, is a degenerative injury that affects the Cartiladge, right down to the bone. This suggest that the issue had to have been, at least in part, known for awhile. It's progressive so the whole, injured in training camp doesn't really fly with me. Sounds more like we just ignored it and Spencer perhaps took advantage of the situation. I don't know but this is the kind of poor decision making process that has crippled us. The whole Rat thing has been discussed but how do you justify that contract? You had to know that he was towards the end, just by watching his play over the last few years. You give him a high priced extension with two years remaining and expect him to do what? There is more to the story but just based on business sense, how do you justify that? We would be in a much better situation had we simply managed our money better. RBs, I really don't have much of a problem there except that we don't have a real FB on the team.

    DL, OL and CB are my main concerns. DL and OL, because of the things posted above but CB, because I believe we spent a ton of cap on guys who don't really fit the scheme. I mean, a few on this board pointed this out prior to moving to this new scheme but most paid little to no attention to that. The contracts are in place so there is not much that could have been done there IMO but I would say that it would probably be wise to try and trade Carr/Mo for picks, reduce our cap number and find guys who are cheaper and who fit the scheme better. JMO (more tomatoes)

    Thus far, we have been much improved in this area, I agree.

    I am not as concerned with DE as I am DT. I agree on Selvie and Wilber, although, Selvie might have fooled us all and is proving to be a possible starter, but the issues there are short term IMO. Ware will come back, Spencer will move on or sign for significantly less money and we will either have good depth there or have 10 Million freed up. DT is the bigger issue and that leads right back to Rat. Lots of dead money tied up there and that is money that could have gone to Hatcher or another good DT. All for not now.

    I agree that eventually, they will demand more money but on the other side of that discussion, until that happens, they contend for a Championship and the general outline for how you stay competitive is in place. As players rotate out, they will continue to bring more in and develop them without breaking the bank at QB I suspect. Wilson is good but I don't believe he's ever going to be a huge Kill the Cap Contract QB. Perhaps I am wrong but I suspect Seattle will do it differently.

    We'll see I suppose.
  6. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    Any business would take a Zero interest loan.

    If they get a Zero interest loan they can have more equipment producing products. More products, equals more profit. Profit is growth.

    If you're referring to tax issues, then the cost of capital equipment or interest is only deducted from profit. You don't give up 100 dollars in profit to save 35 dollars in tax.
  7. LatinMind

    LatinMind iPhotoshop

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    you have to realize too, Sf and Sea have Franchise QBs who are in their first contract. Say this again in a couple yrs with these teams. This league is full of QBs who arent franchise QBs. Brees, Manning, Brady, Flacco, Romo, are the highest paid. But they've also paid their dues and played at that level that justifies their price over the yrs.

    OL shouldnt be a concern anymore. This OL is solid and other than Waters, they are young.

    DL there are some guys coming out that Dallas should be able to get in the first few rounds.

    Trent Murphy DE stanford
    Dominique Easley DE Florida
    Za'Darius Smith DE Kentucky
    Chris Smith De Arkansas

    DT Louis Nix DT ND
    Will Sutton DT ASU
    Ego Ferguson DT LSU
    George Uko DT USC

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    You would be right because, well, my job is to read stuff that everybody posts. That's hard to do sometimes.

    Spreadsheets based on what?

    Spencer absolutely does have effect on future cap. At some point, we will need to replace him and the 10 Million we are now throwing away could have been used to solve that problem for the foreseeable future. Saying Spencer has no affect is like saying the 20 Grand I lost in Vegas last week has no effect on the Mortgage Payment I owe at the end of the month. Yeah, here at this very minute, that might be true but not really.

    All well and good but model it out. Do the Rookie Contracts that we have been adding outweigh the extensions we have given to Romo, Rat, Miles, Lee and others? Do they outweigh the contracts that have been given to Carr, Waters and Spencer? Will they offset the future contracts we will have to give to Dez, Mo, Carter and Smith? The math on this doesn't work out for me.

    The idea should be to carry over as little dead cap as is possible. The idea should not be to extend the dead cap for as long as the future holds by continuing to push cap out to future years, especially when we have proven that we are less then stellar at signing players to good contracts.


    This is an unrealistic model because the only way that it can work is if all the players are under performing. If we draft young players that are good players, they will require larger contracts and that means that we then have to find a way to sign them. Because it is a competitive environment with many teams interested in a good players services, the contracts can not be static. The idea is to acquire good talent and manage cap. However, I see no way in which to offset the larger contract requirements with a bunch of rookie contracts. Can you share the formula for how many rookies we would need on the team, in order to account for, say Rat's contact? For say Miles' or Romos Contracts? And how does that formula balance with the necessary experience you need in order to be a competitive team in the NFL?

    You see the Cowboys drafting two players (DE/DT/OG) in the next draft that will start day one for us or at least in the 1st season? If no, then what is the time frame for these players starting? While we are at it, what is the guarantee that we will, in fact, be able to draft that well and not simply miss on those drafted players? We can not afford to just keep Romo's contract for the duration. That's not realistic so really, what we are talking about is a window here of maybe 2/3 years. Perhaps 4 but there is no real way of telling. However, we know that at some point, we are going to have to find another QB and when that happens, it's a start over scenario. I guess that's an opportunity to get right with the cap but then, what do you have to show for it? As long as we continue to manage our cap like we have in the past, what will we ever have to show for it? That is a model with dwindling results and eventually, that will effect the Revenue Stream. Fans are not going to wait forever for this team to win next year. The will simply fall away and pick up another product. We are already starting to see some of that.

    I see that this is the way you look at it. That's fine but I don't agree with what you are saying here. This sounds like a whole bunch of sales speak to me and not much rooted in fact. Plenty of assumptions will little guarantee on return.

    I don't agree.
  9. KJJ

    KJJ You Have an Axe to Grind

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    I watch the Cowboys and see a talented team that underachieves every season. Entering the 2010 season practically everyone was picking the the Cowboys to go to the SB. The experts study each team going beyond what typical fans do because that's their job. They study and research game film. It makes no difference how many pro bowlers the Chefs had they were 7-9 in 2011 and 2-14 last season. They had coaching and QB issues. The Cowboys have had back to back 8-8 seasons despite having one of the most productive QB's in the league and one of the great sack masters on defense. Romo put up almost 5000 yards last season and Dez Bryant had over 90 catches for 1300+ yards and 12 TD's while Ware had double digit sacks and the Cowboys could only manage 8 wins. As for Rob Ryan the defense was underachieving last season before Lee, Carter, Church and the rest got injured.

    Seattle ran all over the defense in week 2. The Bears pummeled a healthy Cowboys defense in week 4. Even Jerry pointed those games out as part of the reason Ryan was fired. The Cowboys defense got killed the final 2 games of the 2012 season and you claim they over achieved? Most felt Garrett and Ryan were a bad match to begin with and that Ryan was a Jerry Jones hire. The Cowboys had defensive issues all season last year and now it's gotten worse under Kiffen. Ryan is having success in NO because Payton has his team organized and he wanted Ryan apart of it. He was a Sean Payton hire. Garrett talked Jerry into bringing in Kiffen thinking the old turd fossil could recapture the magic he had a over a decade ago in Tampa. As for the Giants they're 0-6 because Eli can't stop turning the ball over he leads the league in turnovers. He has 17 turnovers in only 6 games.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    Why would you ever assume that I don't realize this? Of course I understand that they are young and not being paid like some of the QBs you named. However, I don't see Seattle paying a QB like that. Certainly not Wilson. San Fran, well, they never paid Smith. Instead, they elected to go with the cheaper, less experienced Kaepernick. Now, you can say that the team felt he was better then Smith but I don't buy that. I think they made a business decision and it just might be indicative of how they intend to run their Franchise.

    Tell me, what happens if Smith goes down? What happens if Costa has to step in for Fredbeard? Does anybody still believe that Parnell is the equal to Free? I would be concerned, were I you.

    Guys that will help but will they be guys that can start and replace Ware? Will they be guys that are starters as the 3 Tech, day one and make this DL dangerous? I agree, there are guys that will be able to help if we do our homework but they will also be guys that get paid a decent amount of money if they are that dominate and again, the window for this is not wide open.

    While I do believe that we can get some decent players, this does nothing for the situation we will be in with the young players we have now. There are 3 or 4 big contracts coming up. We can't offset all of those contracts and the existing ones with a bunch of rookies. It won't work.
  11. GimmeTheBall!

    GimmeTheBall! Junior College Transfer

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    A can't-miss defense by next year? Lovely.
    But, unless you are Jimma Johnson with his instincts to hire the right people, and half a trade like the Herschell walker trade, it's not gonna happin in a year. Maybe 3 years (if the offense stays in tact and with that skill level) we will be marching into the Super Bowl game.

    Otherwise, all bets are off.
  12. LatinMind

    LatinMind iPhotoshop

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    Wilson is going to get paid and paid big. And Smith got hurt and Kaep came in and just played better. Before Smith got hurt he was playing really good. Kaep will get his money aswell. Neither of these teams will allow them to leave.

    But thats why theyre called backups. Because theyre not better than the starters.So of course they wont play up to par as a starter. You think NE or Den wont have this same issue is Brady or manning went down? its just the way it is today.

    Nobody is going to replace Ware. He's a generation type player. Like Lawrence Taylor Randy White type. Once they are gone you just have to start over at that position.

    It wont work with just rookies. But honestly other than a Fs and a DL or 2 who would start? This team is full of youth that Getting rid of Ware, Ratliff, Austin, and spencer next yr would actually be easier because the core of this team is already young and starting and playing on their first contracts. Sure they have a player like Dez that will get bigtime money, but other than that? Bruce Carter will sign a 2nd contract in Dallas but it wont be near Lee's contract. Murray? please the guy cant stay healthy. This team could survive with some dead money the next couple yrs. Because they wont be burdened with the star young players needing big deals because they dont have them big stars other than Dez with contracts coming up.

    I actually think the Team is building this team the right way right now. Sure they are paying a little with bad contracts from previous yrs that they needed to restructure. But these players with bad contracts are now on the way out, for sure Austin Ratliff and spencer will be gone next yr. And unless Ware is healthy next yr you cant justify paying him 16 mil while ur paying Romo 21 mil.

    Me, i wouldnt be suprised if they got rid of Ware.

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    We will see on Wilson. I don't see him as a 100 Million, 50 Million Guaranteed QB but we will see.

    How is it that you feel Kaepernick played better? I think that's a very debatable statement.

    No. Green Bay, right now, is playing with scrubs on their OL. They are winning with scrubs. If Smith or any of the guys I just mentioned went down, would we be winning? You can't have a Franchise QB as your backup but we are not talking about QBs here. That argument is too convenient. We are talking about Backup OLs or the like. That's a very different argument or discussion. So again, if Smith goes down or Fredbeard or Free, do we have guys who can step in and carry the load?

    Yet soon we will have to start considering exactly that. Ware has a few good seasons left IMO but after that, he's probably a guy who plays situational football. At that point, we will have to replace him. That's what I'm saying. We don't live in a vacuum. Soon, we are going to have to pay to replace pieces and some are more cap intensive then others.

    Dez, Hatcher, Carter, Smith, Mo, Murray, Crawford, Selvie and Harris, just off the top of my head. All of those guys are young, contributing and will need to have contracts addressed in the very near future.

    Not so sure of this. We are paying Rat and Spencer a whole lot of money to do nothing but watch practice, if that. That does not sound like the right way to me but I guess we'll see.

    Would be expensive and we have nobody to replace him with. The more guys we get rid of, the more hits you have to find outside of the 2nd round. I don't see it.
  14. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    Cutting Ware would save 3.2M in 2014 vs keeping/restructuring him. It would save another 9M over the following years combined.

    The 1st year cap hit for Brandon Carr's 50M contract was about that same amount, 3.x million.

    In other words, they could give a free agent a 50M contract if they cut Ware and the cost in 2014 would be the same as keeping/restructurimg Ware.

    The reason is that not having Ware's base salary more than offsets the dead money from cutting him.
  15. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    FYI, Frederick's contract was 4 years for 6.8M with a first year cap hit of 1.2M.

    If the Cowboys make the playoffs, then their 2014 1st round pick will get a similar salary.
  16. LatinMind

    LatinMind iPhotoshop

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    Having Waters and Fredrick inside i think they would be fine. IMo costa wasnt the problem inside, but the guards. And i really think Parnell could handle a spot start, he's done it a few times already.

    I agree with you on this but i wouldnt cry if Dallas said bye to Ware in the offseason.

    But other than Dez do you see any of them who will get big money? Decent contracts no doubt but nothing that will have people screaming. Maybe Tyron and Carter will get good deals but nothing overwhelming. MO Crawford Selvie and Harris will get typical deals for role players. Murray i would throw up if they resigned him.

    Spencer was a need to be brought back as franchised because there was nothing Dallas had or in Fa that was better. I have no idea with Ratliff. Only thing i can think of is maybe Ratliff is having something with Jerrys daughter and is bribing Jerry or he talks lol. IDK
  17. Red Dragon

    Red Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Things are so unpredictable that one can never say that "we are going to be a better team next year." What if the starting QB goes down in Week 1 with a season-ending injury? Etc.

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