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obama and small business

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by iceberg, Oct 16, 2008.

  1. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

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    during the debate his numbers seemed to change on what was considered small business.

    he said 98% of small businesses make less than 250k a year.

    well, *to me* a small business will be a corporation,LLC that would allow everything to be considered personal income. i have (2) LLCs and am familiar with that. not made any money and my accountant needs to help me clear up paperwork, but when someone is focused on this, and it *is* their business, i would think that many of these businesses better gross >250k a year and all in their "personal" bank account so he's in effect increasing their tax.

    sharing the wealth. (to me that's a slap in the face of someone running a small business - to say they must give up their hard earned money cause they make enough to do that, according to him)

    how does he arrive at that 98% number for small businesses? anyone know?
  2. Kangaroo

    Kangaroo Active Member

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    They make them up
  3. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

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    anyone got a serious answer? how can obama say 98% of small business make less than $250k a year unless that's his own personal breaking point?

    what "defines" a small business and its' income level?

    i went to the gov site and looked it up because the numbers didn't add up to me. (i can be very math based at times) and the gov site directed me to:

    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex...e=13:1.0.1.1.15&idno=13#13:1.0.1.1.15.1.264.9

    long link, huh?

    first few lines:
    The size standards described in this section apply to all SBA programs unless otherwise specified in this part. The size standards themselves are expressed either in number of employees or annual receipts in millions of dollars, unless otherwise specified. The number of employees or annual receipts indicates the maximum allowed for a concern and its affiliates to be considered small.

    (see table yourself, i can't recreate here)

    i see a lot of $750k and 500 employees to designate "small business".

    fewest employees i saw was 50 and .75 (in millions) is the smallest figure i saw.

    so far the 98% make less than 250k is total crap.
  4. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

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    Here's a fact checking article from CNNMoney.com that explains the issue pretty well...

    http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/index.htm
  5. Jarv

    Jarv Loud pipes saves lives. Zone Supporter

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    I own an LLC also as a sole proprietor, I'm not making 250K but I am close, close enough that when he slipped and said 200K at one point last night it got my attention.

    So I guess I shouldn't hire someone and grow my business, which I was considering (job growth anyone?). I would only hire someone if that person could "bring up" my bottom line...At which point I would be spanked by Obama for making too much and sharing my "hard earned" money with people who aren't working.

    Joe the Plumber, Jarv the IT guy...All the same.
  6. Danny White

    Danny White Winter is Coming

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    I don't know the answer to your question Ice.

    I do know, however, that if Obama's defining "small business" as those making less than $250K, then he's got an even worse comprehension of what drives our economy than I had previously feared.

    Small businesses making less than $250K cannot possibly be employing that many people in the whole scope of the economy.

    However, there are many businesses that I'd argue definitely qualify as "small" -- including my own -- that make more than that and employ a lot of people, but would be hammered under Obama's plan and would result in major job loss and economic catastrophe if he has his way.

    I employ around 40 people, and we pay them well and give great benefits. But if our company's tax burden skyrockets under Obama, then something's gotta give. And that will be the number of people we're able to keep on or the quality of the benefits we're able to give.
  7. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

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    Obama this summer voted to raise the level of income tax from 35% to 39.5% for fiscal year 2009. That is before all the new taxes he will dump on you, including but not limited to the additional income tax increase promised last night, payroll taxes and the Carbon tax included in the bail out bill.

    Don't forget the return of the ATM tax.

    I'm sure Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Clinton and Frank will find other ways to steal our money.
  8. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

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    It depends on the industry. Here is the SBAs definition of Small Business.

    The Small Business Act states that a small business concern is "one that is independently owned and operated and which is not dominant in its field of operation." The law also states that in determining what constitutes a small business, the definition will vary from industry to industry to reflect industry differences accurately. SBA's Small Business Size Regulations implement the Small Business Act's mandate to SBA. SBA has also established a table of size standards, matched to North American Industry Classification System (NAICS) industries.

    When the U.S. Congress first established SBA, the fundamental question was just what numerical definition should SBA use to define small businesses, industry by industry, to determine what businesses were eligible for SBA's programs. Over the years SBA has established and revised numerical definitions for all for-profit industries, and this numerical definition is called a "size standard." It is almost always stated either as the number of employees or average annual receipts of a business concern.

    In addition to establishing eligibility for SBA programs, all federal agencies must use SBA's size standards for its Federal Government contracts it identifies as a small business. Agencies must also use SBA's size standards for their other programs and regulations, unless they are authorized by Federal statute to use something else.

    SBA's Office of Size Standards develops and recommends small business size standards to the Size Policy Board and to the Administrator of SBA. These include recommendations on small business definitions that other Federal agencies propose. Under the Small Business Act, Federal agencies must obtain the approval of the SBA Administrator before adopting a size standard different from SBA's size standard.

    The Office of Government Contracting makes formal "size determinations" on whether a business qualifies as an eligible small business for SBA programs.

    The Office of Hearings and Appeals (OHA) reviews appeals of formal size determinations.

    The Office of General Counsel interprets size standards regulations for the Agency and intervenes in OHA size determination appeal cases if necessary.

    The Offices of Size Standards, Government Contracting, and General Counsel coordinate on all size standard issues.

    The Federal Government has established a web site site, REGULATIONS.GOV , where you can find, review, and submit comments on Federal documents that are open for comment and published in the Federal Register, the Government’s legal newspaper. As a member of the public, you can submit comments about these regulations, and have the Government take your views into account. The web site makes it easier for you to participate in Federal rulemaking - an essential part of the American democratic process.

    For further information, you may write or call the Office of Size Standards:




    The revenue numbers also apply to Gross rather then Proffit numbers. The numbers Obama may be using to effect his 98% level is probably based on the average of all business. I can open up a Lemonade stand and if I have a business license, it's a business under 250K. IMO, he's clouding the numbers by using the "Hot Dog Stand" effect.

    The better question is, how many Small Business fold in the first 3 years? Over 50% of all small business fail in there first 3 years of operations.

    What Obama proposes will almost certainly drive that number up. Small Business will be forced to pass on the increase onto the consumer. So, lets say you have 5% Tax increase. All business will increase current prices by 6 to 7%, not just Small Business because if larger business sees the market is going to be forced to accept increase by Small Business, they will take advantage of the opportunity and increase there own prices. That's how it works. Small Business will do this because, not only can they not afford to shoulder the burden, but they must show increased sales and proffitability year to year if they expect to get loans for there creditors.

    This is a very bad strategy IMO. Obama plans to pay for all of his programs by increasing the costs, indirectly, to the consumer. All this talk of not increasing taxes to 98% of the population is a shame. The increase will show up in your day to day living expenses. It will cost more to live for every American regardless of employment status. It will cause more small business to fail and this will result in increased unemployment.

    I encourage all of you to just ask two or three Small Business owners how they intend to deal with the increase in taxes that are inevitable. I will bet money that the response will be, "Pass it on to the customer."

    Honestly, I don't know how Americans can listen to what is being presented to them and believe that they are going to be in a better financial sitution under Obama's plan.
  9. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

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    thanks to all for the answers. i appreciate greatly being able to talk about it w/o a side having to be better than the other.

    if a small business is 50 employees, there's no way in hell they're under $250k in revenue. 10 employees would be everyone making 25k as a salary and nothing else.

    it doesn't add up and he keeps pushing it and i wanting to know how he got to that number and one post did show some "bush math" to be sure.

    bush got nailed for it, obama is about to get elected for it.

    we're a very fickle society w/o much focus on long term effects. that's what scares me more than any politician running for office.

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