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Offensive lineman rankings...

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by MichaelWinicki, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    No doubt about it being the RT does not mean he will not face legit pass rusher and often times you will see offense adjust where the RB may have been lined up to the left he will move over to the side where the top passer moves over to counter.
  2. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    I understand but that is why stats do not tell the entire tale. When teams face Chicago the offensive coaches are going to pay more attention to Peppers than anyone else on the front line and clearly that benefits the rusher on the opposite side.

    As I have heard before there are "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics" :laugh2:
  3. Nightshade

    Nightshade Active Member

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    Great Objective Post.
  4. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    Also effected by LTs being far better blockers than RTs :)

    There is no great mystery that you put your best pass blocker at LT and your best pass rusher at RE. At least for a good majority of snaps.

    Peppers draws the most attention on that Bears defense and is their best pressure player by far. Maybe not in a given game or after being neutralized by studs but certainly when all things are equal as proven over time.
  5. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    But there are also easily gatherable stats such as how many sacks were allowed in a pure rush situation (i.e. no blitz or stunt). Or how many times a guy single blocks the other team's best pass rusher.

    In this type stat I feel very strongly that Free would finish well below Smith.

    Smith has struggled with parts of the game that come via experience. He is poor on stunts regularly.

    But Free struggles physically. Physical struggles are worrisome because athletically the guys do not tend to change much.

    Free's struggles show up as often lately in the running game. The Cowboys have zero shot running to the right side most attempts because Free gets blown off the ball and we can forget about him ever setting the edge.
  6. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    So he had a bad week against TB - they have a great interior line that gave us fits that day. Then not a great game against the Giants. Another team with great DL play.

    Seems reasonable and, in fact, pretty good considering that Cook is by all accounts an awful run blocker who likely destroys many run plays that Livings gets blamed for.
  7. Clove

    Clove Shrinkage

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    I'm sure we'll draft another receiver. Jones isn't a proponent of build inside out.
  8. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    OT, but how nice is it to be talking football again in regular football threads? Man, message boards are nicer after big wins.
  9. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    so then why did they draft Tyron Smith? I hope to add to the OL as far as the draft pick that really depends on where we draft and what is on the board. I lobbied for DeCastro this past draft but when Dallas had the chance to get Claiborne I was thrilled we could get a prospect of his caliber. I don't care to see us Draft a player based on the position he plays as much as getting quality players in here.
  10. honyock

    honyock Well-Known Member

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    if it is impossible, then why do teams bother scouting, or evaluating players for the draft?

    I get it that a system like PFF doesn't supply context. That's the job for humans to do. But to throw out their rankings because "you can't do it" overlooks that ranking systems can reveal things over the course of a season that are useful.

    I get it, a blown assignment by a fellow lineman (say, Cook) can give someone else (say, Livings) a bad grade on a play. But over the course of full season, the rankings should reveal trends for a player anyway.

    And if you only want to use your eyes and your gut, is that any more useful? Especially if your eyes are maybe a little biased towards your pre-existing opinion of a player. Goodness knows, we humans often have a little bias working against us in these kinds of evaluations.

    So what do your eyeballs tell you about the Cowboys O-linemen (and I mean something beyond "our line sucks!) I look at those PFF rankings for the Cowboys, and they don't look too far off to me. One thing they can't tell is how one players poor play is affected over time by anothers poor play. But relatively speaking, it can speak to that as well. If Cook has been bad (and the rankings reflect that about him), and that should affect the entire interior of the line, then why has Livings graded out significantly better than Bernardeau? Because Smith has been better than Free? Maybe that's part of it. But it sure seems to fit the eyeball test that Livings has been much better than Bernardeau this year...he's been better able to overcome poor center play than Bernardeau has.

    A ranking system like PFF isn't MEANT to provide context. That's up to a team to do (or in this case, it gives us fans a chance to play armchair GM). For example, both Smith and Free have struggled this year, Free much moreso. Does that mean we should move Smith back to right tackle, or look for a replacement (my answer is absolutely not). The context is, he's young, talented, should continue to improve, struggling with a move to LT, showed his promise last year. You give him time. But that's not PFF's job to do. It's up to us people to provide the context, and crazy me, I sometimes hope for more nuanced context than "they suck", "it can't be done", "they're garbage".

    One thing that will be interesting...say Costa comes back, and he can play several games without getting hurt again (a big IF), and he grades out higher than Cook. Will that affect Bernardeau's ranking? You'd expect it might, but it would shed some light on how much Bernardeau's bad play is because of who surrounds him, or because he's just bad.

    If PFF's O-line rankings are useless, then regarding the Cowboys, where do you disagree with them? Cook too high? Smith too low? And I don't buy the argument that no one can say because you can't evaluate every lineman in the league. If a lineman's play improves, you'd expect their ranking to improve and reflect that over time.
  11. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    Great reply.

    Hopefully some folks read it two or three times until they "get it".
  12. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    It is a great reply, but I'm not sure he's got it right. If there are too many variables to measure, then it doesn't matter if or how they're able to normalize the results of their measurement if what they're measuring is not meaningful. Unless you know how to properly interpret the measurements, you can't recognize trends and instead what you get up with is an attempt to describe the wind. An admirable attempt, maybe, but not helpful.

    If there were a way to know what each players' responsibility were, definitively, for each play, then I'd agree, this would be great data, but as it is, I'm afraid it relies on too many uncertain assumptions, which is why legitimate statistical models don't even bother to try to measure it.
  13. StanleySpadowski

    StanleySpadowski Active Member

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    I think you're falling into the history trap. Once upon a time that was certainly the case but the NFL evolves. OLB is where the best pass rushers are today, not RE and with seemingly the exception of Dallas (but that's a different debate) that great pass rusher is moved around and seldom is left to beat the LT one on one.
  14. StanleySpadowski

    StanleySpadowski Active Member

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    PFF's rankings are crap, not because it can't be done, but because they do such a crappy job with them.

    If one person was evaluating every player, the ranking system would have some merit but it would be a full time job just to do NFC or AFC teams, let alone the entire NFL if you wanted to do it correctly. It takes me several hours to look at the Cowboys each week.
  15. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    Do I think PFF's ratings could be more relevent when it comes to offensive linemen?

    You bet.

    But once you finish with it, their ratings pretty much parallel what most are seeing and saying meaning that Livings has performed better than any of the other offensive linemen to date and the tackles have not played well.

    From that aspect their ratings do seem to have merit.

    If their ratings suggested Smith and Free were having decent seasons and that Livings was playing badly...

    Well then I'd be right there with many others saying that their ratings are not valid.
  16. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    Well, I would say it can't be done on an individual basis. But they do a crappy job, even with what they're attempting to do.
  17. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    Teams don't use a ranking system like PFF, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.
  18. RXP

    RXP Well-Known Member

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    Good post
  19. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    I'm not sure anyone of us knows what type of system is used by all the teams, but I wouldn't be shocked to find out that some form of modified PFF system is used. Teams have the advantage of knowing what the assignments of the play are or were, which would inherently make their (the team's) ratings more accurate.

    But I have to belief some sort of rating system is used.
  20. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    And if they do just that they can cut Miles Austin and use his salary slot on an OL.

    Building a team isn't all that complicated. You need to get what you pay for. Both in terms of draft production and salary cap dollars.

    I am not advocating a WR in r1 by any means here but we have no idea what players will be present when we pick. Anyone married to an OL or any position at this point is silly.

    Ideally, we'd draft an RT who could walk in and replace a cut Doug Free. But we don't know who will be there.

    Ask ATL how bad it is when you have two stud WRs?

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