Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by WoodysGirl, Apr 15, 2008.
I still think some people are underestimating Cason's athletic ability.
I've seen that man to man coverage comment once before. Arizona plays man to man at CB. Look at the film footage I posted earlier. He's locked up with Jackson. What Zone scheme does that?
Regardless, I e-mailed Mark Stoops the DC/Secondary Coach for the Arizona Wildcats and asked him to clear this up. If he responds I will post the response.
Antoine Cason is already a SPECIAL player. To compare Bobby Carpenter and Cason is flat crazy. Carpenter was a guy who put up good but not quite great numbers in college but was always overshadowed by AJ Hawk. Alot of speculation was that he would post better numbers if Hawk was not there to post the numbers. Cason is already posting numbers that are in the special category.
Hostile, I honestly believe that this conception that Cason is a "zone-corner" is the reason that he is not viewed as a sure fire first round DP.
I did not watch Arizona much, so I can only go by what I have read on how they play, and all I ever read is how Arizona plays a zone scheme.
I could certainly see Cason being one of those guys that ends up being drafted much higher in the draft that he is in Mock drafts. If NFL scouts do not feel he is a zone CB. Without the "zone corner" label Cason is arguably the best CB in the draft when you combined performance along with athleticism.
Both Antoine Cason and I can cover you in man to man coverage but neither of us can cover Randy Moss
Still not sure why it is confusing that EVERY player has to be PROJECTED as to how they fit NFL teams and schemes. For specific boards how a guy fits a team is what determines his placement on the board.
The two guys referenced in the article probably played a quite good man coverage in college.
I have been very specific in my opinion of Cason but let me expound even more.
Rates a mid second rounder athletically, is a half-step slower than ideal for the position but has good height. Is a high character guy who maximizes his talent and minimizes his mistakes. Is a near can't miss contributor in the NFL. Would project to a plus #2 CB who has some safety help on the fastest WRs but will pay the ball and is generally active. Lacks flash but has subtance.
Dallas: Would probably come in as the nickel guy as a rookie. Can play some special teams but perhaps more coverage as opposed to return units. Would ideally be ready to pass Anthony Henry on the depth chart in short order as Henry battles injuries regularly. Would never draw top coverage assignment away from the much more physically gifted Terence Newman unless Newman fell off.
Concerns as a Dallas fan: Potential to be only 4th corner if knucklehead gets signed, re-instated and avoids another arrest for a while. 4th corner with some special teams plays makes him an insurance policy so the price at 28 could be high for that. But the game has gone so heavily to the pass you need CBs and it is a price Dallas should be willing to pay for some insurance, especially if you consider both Henry and Pacman as 1/2 a CB due to their recent histories.
I also think the relative lack of success of OU CBs has something to do with it. Guys who had great college careers playing in Stoops defensive scheme especially when baby Stoops was there.
They were inventive and attacking defense that didn't out a huge onus on coverage.
You're absolutely right. The "zone corner" label is what knocked his draft stock down. And that "zone corner" label was the result of the idea that he was going to run in the 4.6s at the Combine. Well, that obviously didn't happen.
So, the question becomes, is he a zone corner? Well, he excelled at man coverage in college. He clearly has the athleticism to be a man corner in the NFL when we're talking about timed numbers. So what's the deal?
I think this entire debate comes down to those that simply read a draft magazine and those that actually looked deeper into what kind of player he is.
I guess he finally saw that I did in fact answer his question.
Uh, Mark Stoops is the Secondary coach at UA, his coaching tree does not include a stop at Oklahoma. In fact, when he came here to work with his brother Mike, he was the DB Coach at Miami. Last I checked those guys have had considerable success in the NFL.
Who is the head coach and what job did he have before Arizona?
Since when does a secondary coach design the defensive schemes???
WOW... seriously. You weren't kidding about pulling stuff out of your butt. I just didn't know you were gonna reach that deep.
BTW, my secondary coach at Tech(Carlos Mainord) also coached at Miami and then even for the Bears under Wanny but he didn't design the Bears schemes as DB coach....
from MIKE STOOPS biography....
Stoops’ penchant for dominating defenses has already begun to pay dividends for Arizona. Dead last in the Pac-10 in total defense, rushing defense, scoring defense and pass efficiency defense the season prior to his arrival, the Wildcats improved nearly across the board in Stoops’ first year while using nearly the same talent as 2003.
Stoops’ self-described ‘violent’ defensive scheme led the Wildcats to an NCAA Division I-best 19 fumbles recovered in 2004 and the belief that he will accept no substitute for less than full-throttle play has already helped recharge a unit that once spawned nationally known nicknames.
Mike Stoops made me the player I am."
— Derrick Strait, 2003 Thorpe and Nagurski Awards winner as the nation’s best defensive back and best defender.
As an aside I didn't know Sonny was coaching the UA offense now... good for him.
Mark Stoops is the Defensive Coordinator and Secondary Coach at Arizona. He is the guy who has been coaching Antoine Cason for 4 years.
Mike Stoops is the head Coach. His coaching tree goes to Oklahoma, but Mark's does not.
You swung and missed. Big deal.
I can quote stuff too.
Arizona’s football chemistry derives as much from defensive coordinator Mark Stoops as any staff member. He’s helped spearhead a mental focus and consistency of play that has rekindled the Wildcats’ reputation as a physically tough program.
His presence on the staff gives UA two regarded experts – he and brother Mike -- in defensive secondary schematics and has helped transform the unit into a team strength. Mark brings 15 years’ experience working with defensive backs to the staff’s strategic planning.
Stoops, 39, was defensive backs coach for the Miami Hurricanes from 2001-2003. He also has experience as a co-defensive coordinator at Houston in 2000, three years coaching defensive backs at Wyoming from 1997-99, one year in the same capacity at South Florida in 1996, and four years in the Ohio prep ranks.
His coaching style and ability to encourage with constructive emphasis make him a dynamic force on UA’s staff.
2007 was Sonny Dykes' first year in Tucson. The offense got better as the year went on and Tuitama started figuring things out.
I hope Sonny does well, too. But to be honest, I'm not a fan of Mike Stoops.
We need better QBs here before this team does anything. Hopefully Sonny Dykes being here can bring one or two this way who can be in uniform on Sundays some day. I'm not asking for Elways and Aikmans. I'd be fine with a guy who can be a 3rd stringer in the NFL.
You know who the last QB for the Wildcats to get drafted was? John Connor in the 10th round by the Seahawks in 1985. Don't strain your eyes looking for his NFL resume'.
Yeah, and boy was that career ugly!
He didn't just get cut from the team, he got terminated!
(hey, if I didn't someone else would have!)
The thing is, it doesn't take a great NFL prospect to run that offense well. Texas Tech has done it with walk-ons like Sonny Cumbie and B.J. Symons. They were extremely effective and had no pedigree and marginal talent.
Tech, however, does have some fairly talented guys now. Graham Harrell runs it very well, but his backup (Taylor Potts) has a big-time arm and has more physical skills, IMO.
The system will lead to great recruits at QB and WR.
It should allow Stoops to build a solid team considering his defensive reputation.
I wish Tech was in the Pac-10 where you didn't have to battle UT and OU just to end up 3rd in the friggin Big 12 South.
I know you are immensely hard-headed but surely you can take a deep breath and realize the point I made went like this:
The defensive scheme at OU when the baby Stoops was there(and yes Mike is baby-brother of the OU coaching tree) has hurt Cason's stock because guys like Derrick Strait didn't achieve the same pro success as they did in college.
What does this mean?
Uh, that MIKE STOOPS is the designer of that defense which anyone with any idea at all what is going on at UA acknowledges. That the defensive scheme is a turnover-machine defense that tricks things up and applies lots of pressure on offenses. It has nothing to do with MARK STOOPS and no one brought him up until you did.
Or are you suggesting you lacked the brain power to determine MIKE STOOPS was the baby brother at OU? Are you suggesting NFL teams look at that UA scheme like it is the scheme they ran at Miami?
Is basic common sense that fleeting?
I just went back and read it...
I havent seen him play as much as you have (in fact probably nobody that posts in this forum has)...but the 3 or 4 times I saw him play, I didnt come away thinking he was a shutdown, franchise CB
I'd be happy to have him on our team, just dont think he's a 1st rd pick..we'll never know how all 32 teams graded him, but I dont think he's going in the first
One of Cason arm is longer than the other so we shouldn't draft him.
so whats your definition of a "special" player? and if he's special, whats that make the 4-6-8 or so CB's that are likely going before him?
there are not any "special" CB talents in this draft IMO...I dont see Deion Sanders or Mike Haynes in any of them...and thats why its likely none of them are going to be drafted before the 10-12 area...because nobody else sees them as "special" either