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Revisit DE...opinions changed?

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by SDogo, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    So........for the last several years I have pegged a DE for the Cowboys in Round 1 at some point or another. Last year I wanted JJ Watt.........got blasted for it. Wanted Ryan Kerrigan.........got blasted for it.

    2010 I called for Jared Ordick.........got blasted

    It appeared the Cowboys also were interested but it never seemed to work out.

    The reasoning? I have been told the position is simply not important. 3-4 DE's dont rush the passer.....I think someone forgot to tell JJ Watt and Ryan Kerrigan.

    While the lack of pass rush, pressure and QB sacks by our unit other then Ware is fresh on everyone's mind and given what Watt and Kerrigan have shown this year and how a DE can indeed bring that aspect to a 3-4 defense has anyone's mind changed yet?
  2. InmanRoshi

    InmanRoshi Zone Scribe

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    People are basically still stuck on an elementary school vanilla understanding of what the 3-4 is. They believe for a 3-4 defense to work you have to have 2 immobile stiffs at DE and then one really, really fat immobile guy in the middle. Never mind the fact that Ryan has his DL playing as much 3 tech as 0 or 5 tech, especially in sub packages.
  3. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    You nailed that one!
  4. casmith07

    casmith07 I'm the best poster in the game!

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    I'm not sure who told you it wasn't important, but I still felt DE was a liability outside of Spears being more of a gap plugging guy.

    I love your Jared Crick selection. I would also be happy with somehow signing Mario Williams to play End here. He has the size and shouldn't be moved to OLB.
  5. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    oh geeze, just pull up any JJ Watt thread from last year or Ordick thread before that.

    I spent more time arguing this subject then any other on this board.
  6. junk

    junk I've got moxie

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    I think someone forgot Ryan Kerrigan doesn't play 3-4 end.
  7. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    I admit to being one who was not wanting a 34 de. Although I still think I like our last two first round picks. Also not sure if there is a great 34 de in this draft that we would take in the first. Yes I know I am bull headed but would rather have a great interior olineman, DB or even 34 OLB.
  8. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    I think you need to watch more Redskins games. Despite his listing as a LB on the depth chart he played over 70% of his snaps with his hand on the ground at DE. Trust me, I had to ask the right questions to the right people before I included him because I wondered myself.

    5 of his 7.5 sacks came from the DE position.
  9. TheCoolFan

    TheCoolFan Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that it's hard to find the "right" 3-4 DE that can rush the passer too. What are the odds that they take someone and he turns into a Marcus Spears, Glenn Dorsey, Tyson Jackson, etc?
  10. BruceLee5450

    BruceLee5450 Well-Known Member

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    SDogo, what would your plan be with Acho? Hopefully Carter is ready to go next season. Would your plan be to move Carter to OLB or just drafting Acho to come in on 3rd down-ST's? Just trying to get in your head
  11. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    I wonder if the cowboys would consider another NT in the first few rounds and if there is even a too end one in this draft that has a first or second round pick.
  12. BruceLee5450

    BruceLee5450 Well-Known Member

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    lol if I can find any bright spots, at least it brings a little gleam to my eye coming in to this draft thread to see we have the 14th pick, instead of 25th b/c this team in no way was winning the SB this year. Losers mentality I know, but I gotta find 1 positive
  13. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    My favorite is Boise St DE Billy Winn but he could be had in the 2nd round.

    Devon Still is probably the top option in the 1st round but even as a PSU fan I'm not sold.

    Clemson DT Brandon Thompson is a name to keep an eye on. A lot of 3-4 teams like him at DE and his stock is rising.

    Mississippi St DT Fletcher Cox is quickly becoming one of my favorites as well. Another DT 3-4 teams love at DE and may become one of the top DL off the board.

    Jared Crick despite a stock drop is still on my want list.

    But your right, there is no JJ Watt in this years class.
  14. junk

    junk I've got moxie

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    How many has Ware had over the years with his hand on the ground? How many times does Ware walk up on the line in a 3-4? If he drops his hand on the ground, is he playing a 3-4 end?

    In Nickel and Dime fronts, it's pretty common to go to 4 man fronts or have your OLBs put their hand on the ground.

    Just because he puts his hand on the ground occasionally that doesn't mean he is playing a 3-4 end position. Not going to be very effective at 267 pounds.
  15. BruceLee5450

    BruceLee5450 Well-Known Member

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    no players with the hype of Watt, there are going to be plenty of good finds
  16. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    Purely looking for depth and someone who can develop into a starter. This team has none of it at either ILB or OLB. Acho has the makeup to become a sensational pass rusher early in his career in a reserve roll. I like the idea of moving Carter to OLB and I'm not buying the size argument. All OLB's in a 3-4 don't need to be 260+ pounds. It's a terrible myth and needs to be put to rest.
  17. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    I'm not sure what your leading to.....if you lineup at DE with your hand on the ground or not in any given formation your playing DE in that instance.

    It's part of the beauty of a 3-4, even NT in today's schemes is not really just a NT. Look at all the different formations Rob uses, heck sometimes I'm not even sure you can directly label the positions in regards to a traditional set in stone 3-4 alignment.
  18. casmith07

    casmith07 I'm the best poster in the game!

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    I'd be fine if he turns into Marcus Spears. Spears pushes the pocket and occupies at least two blockers a lot of the time.

    Would free up Ratliff for more 1 on 1s with Ware getting doubled/tripled all the time.

    But we need a smaller, athletic end. A guy Ware's size or Spencer's size with the speed.

    Hell, convert Spencer back to DE.
  19. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    Interesting

    I like the line of thinking though.
  20. junk

    junk I've got moxie

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    You might be better served to say you want more pass rushers. You might not "get blasted" as much if you phrased it that way.

    This all goes back to the basic tenets of the 3-4 and what the roles and responsibilities are in that base defense.

    In that base defense, a 3-4 end is primarily tasked with controlling the LOS while a 3-4 linebacker is your pass rusher. Can you have 3, 4 or 5 man fronts in a 3-4? Sure. Can you have a variety of looks? Sure. Can the players in that defense have different gap responsibilities and roles depending upon the formation and play call? Sure. Rob Ryan does a lot of that.....not very successfully....but he does do a lot of that.

    But if Ware walks up on the line and puts his hand on the ground, it doesn't suddenly turn into a 4-3 and he doesn't suddenly become a DE. In that case, would Spears or Hatcher be a 3-4 DT since they have their hand on the ground and are covered up?

    I'm sure everyone would like to have great pass rushing 3-4 ends. However, they are difficult to find. Partially because it is hard to find someone that can provide strong run support at the LOS and rush the passer consistently and partially because they often aren't tasked with rushing the passer.

    Bottom line: Ryan Kerrigan and J.J. Watt are completely different players and skill sets. If Kerrigan was in Dallas, he'd play Spencer's spot, not Hatcher or Spears. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone call him a 3-4 end.

    Does Dallas need more pass rush? Yes. Can it come from the 3-4 end position? Sure, if the defense is set up that way and you find the right guy. However, if I had my choice between a 3-4 end and an upgrade to Spencer's spot, I'd take the upgrade at Spencer's spot first.

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