Romo lovers & Haters, come clean!

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Clove, Jun 9, 2013.

  1. ufcrules1

    ufcrules1 Well-Known Member

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    It is true that less is asked of Wilson than Romo no doubt. The real question is if more is asked of Wilson how high his ceiling is. I saw enough of him last year to know his ceiling is very high and I think he is a better/smarter QB.

    Same goes goes with Luck, RG3, and Kap. All have higher ceilings than Romo.
  2. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Backwoods Sexy Staff Member

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    I thought there was no need to debate anymore?

    Guess that was not a completely accurate statement. ;)
  3. ufcrules1

    ufcrules1 Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted the last word. :laugh2:
  4. RoyTheHammer

    RoyTheHammer Well-Known Member

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    That's fair enough.. i just don't think you grasp the concept of how much more difficult things are here in Dallas, like doomsy said. If Wilson had played here his rookie season, instead of Seattle, it would have been much more pressure just from location alone. The main thing though, is how much harder it is to play the QB position when teams can just line up every down and rush the hell out of the passer, knowing they don't have to worry about the run game whatsoever. That would be bad enough by itself, but then when you factor in teams doing that against this shoddy OL, Wilson would have been a dead duck.
  5. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Backwoods Sexy Staff Member

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    Been there done that. :laugh2:
  6. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Take away the help he gets chances are he is not going to have the same success. He has talent but again having the threat of a running game keeps defense at bay, they don't just go after the QB.

    You talk of this ceiling well what makes Wilson, RG3 and Kap effective is what is around them and the help they get. This is not a slam on them, hell I want a running game and I want the defense to shut people down and to get turnovers if we can do that then we have a good chance to win just as those teams did.
  7. Eskimo

    Eskimo Well-Known Member

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    This is a bit of a cause and effect sort of thing, though.

    When we are losing he will be throwing the ball a lot to try and score quickly. So in almost all losses he is going to throw the ball a lot.

    Conversely in games that we have a big lead, we are mostly going to run the ball so he isn't going to be throwing the ball as much in those games.

    I do agree that we threw the ball way too much last year for my tastes. We didn't have a choice as the running game was very ineffective. If we would have stuck to a conventional 50-50 offense we wouldn't have scored very much. We usually entered the game with a plan to be balanced but then would have to abandon it at some point because we weren't scoring and our defense was swiss cheese again.

    I do think this is largely why we drafted Frederick and why we are going to a zone blocking scheme with more stretch plays. The goal will be to run the ball more and use play action more effectively. Costa and Cook cannot play Center in a ZBS because they are so slow off the ball after the snap. The other advantage of bringing in Frederick is that he is an elite point of attack blocker - probably the best 1-on-1 power blocker in the whole draft including Warmack. Frederick has this amazing ability to latch into a NT and then just turn him right out of the hole - it is remarkable to watch on film how much functional strength he has at the point of attack. I think our short yardage offense is going to be a lot better this year with Frederick at Center.

    If you look at our drafts the last 12 years you'll see that we spent very few 1st and 2nd round picks on offense. Somewhat comically many of those picks were spent on vet WRs who busted on us (3 1sts and 1 3rd given up), 1 busted WR with a bad attitude (Antonio Bryant), 3 backup TEs, 1 busted OT (Jacob Rogers) one busted RB (Felix). About the only good picks on offense we made over this stretch are Dez Bryant, Andre Gurode and Tyron Smith. So in 14 drafts comprising 28 first and second round possible picks we found 3 good offensive players. That is just pathetic. It is beyond pathetic. People have forgotten how bad we were on offense from 2000-2006 pre-Romo. Then all of a sudden we became a very good offense once he went in. That wasn't some accident. He lifted the play of the whole team when he came in compared to what we had done under all those who came after Aikman.

    So why did the offense start to get worse after 2007? The answer is largely that the offense was built with vet FAs who were old and they started to fade badly when they hit their 30s. This included players like Terry Glenn, TO, Flo, Gurode, Bigg, RW11, MB3 - guys who made multiple Pro Bowls quickly became JAGs. But in the salary cap age you can't earn $7M/yr and be a JAG. We had to let them go and deal with some cap hell and that is what has happened in 2011 and 2012 - this prevented us from really fortifying the team across the board. The money we had was spent on journeyman OGs, a very good vet CB and a backup ILB in case Carter was a bust. Then the money was gone. Despite all the players we have sent packing we still may be facing more cap hell next year as we are up against the cap with decisions to be made on guys like Free, Rat, Spencer, Hatcher and Austin. Plus we need to keep room to extend up and comers like Lee, Tyron, Dez and Carter.

    We need to keep churning out young talent just to stay competitive because of how many overpaid vets Jerry has accumulated due to poor cap management.

    There are many things that are holding us back and Romo is way down on that list.
  8. Nation

    Nation Well-Known Member

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    That's what I was saying, that every quarterback is going to have a better record when they are throwing the ball in the 20's, as opposed to the 30s/40s/50s. My point with Romo is that he has a higher percentage of games where he's asked to throw for a ton of attempts compared to someone like Wilson, which is a reflection of the talent around him.
  9. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

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    I don't consider myself a Romo hater. Sometimes I can't win. If I criticize him after a bad game or a bad play, I'm labeled as a hater. If I don't criticize him, I'm a blind homer.

    4 Things I Like

    1. Quick Release with Good Accuracy on short and intermediate passes

    2. He can get really hot when he's in the zone.

    3. Can beat teams from the pocket or outside the pocket.

    4. Ball handling skills

    4 Things I Hate

    1. Goes thru a stretch each year where he has to be reminded to protect the football.

    2. Audibles too much and makes it hard for the O-Line to be on the same page.

    3. A little short for a QB with a 3/4 delivery, so he needs the interior of the O-Line to give him space to throw and we can't play action and throw over the top to the TE in goal line and short yardage situations.

    4. Looks for Witten too often.

  10. Hostile

    Hostile The Duke

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    I can understand why fans of other teams hate him. They are supposed to. For the life of me, I can't understand why some of our fans do. To me, it is evidence that some people are just football stupid.

    Before anyone gets butt hurt about that, I haven't named any names. If you want to confess your sins, then don't blame me. What I mean by it is simply that when you cannot respect football talent then you're not too bright. In the 1970's Archie Manning was a phenomenal QB. If anyone doesn't realize that, they are football stupid. If there are Saints fans who don't like Archie, they are football stupid.

    Too often I hear people say things about people making excuses for Tony. What excuses? I mean that, what excuses? Is it a team game? Yes. So hwo is that an excuse? It isn't unless you don't grasp that it is. Do all QBs throw INTs at times when their team needs them to make a play? Yes. Then how is that an excuse? It isn't unless you haven't got a clue about the game, and frankly many don't. Do QBs throw more than one INT in a game and sometimes throw a bunch of them? Yes. Then how is that an excuse? It isn't unless you haven't got a clue about the game. Do QBs have defenses who let them down? Or O-lines? Or WRs drop balls? Yes. So how are these excuses? They aren't unless you haven't got a clue about the game.

    If these aren't excuses, what are they? Truths, and sometimes the truth hurts. Should it? It sort of depends on your ability to accept the truth doesn't it? The dumbest one is the one about he's just a stats machine. I don't want to say any more than that. Monumentally dumb comment.

    So why should we like him? I mean besides the fact he is the QB of our team? It seems so obvious to me.

    First of all let's talk about the fact that he is a genuinely good person. The story about him coming home from the 2008 opening game in Cleveland is an example. For those who don't remember, he got his chin busted open, the plane arrived back in Dallas around 11:30 at night, and sometime around midnight he was in headed home and saw an older couple in a mall parking lot changing a tire. He's beaten to a pulp, tired, it's late, and he not only stops to change their tire, but doesn't tell them who he is until the woman realizes, and doesn't tell anyone else he's done it because he wasn't trying to get his name in the paper, he just wanted to be helpful.

    Later that year he also took a homeless man to the movies with him to see the movie "Role Model." How ironic since he was acting like one, and so many athletes don't. The man told him he hadn't showered in days. Romo simply told him that he is used to that and not only treated him to a movie, but snacks as well.

    How many stories like this are there that we have no idea about? I suspect there are a lot of them.

    He's playful on and off the field. We've all seen the footage of him mimicking the ref. Or the footage of him begging Jason Garrett to call a certain play and offering him a kiss. Or what about him telling Stephen McGee that where he grew up in Wisconsin was basically a war zone, then laughing at how naive McGee was to even consider that was true. What about singing "Don't Stop Believing" with the principal from "Saved By The Bell?" Badly I might add. To me, he's a big kid. I admire that.

    Plus there's the fact that he was an undrafted player from a small school who is shattering team records. How anyone can not like an underdog is beyond me. Rooting for an underdog is one of the greatest joys in sports. Especially if the rooting pays off. Losing the chance to do that out of the petty excuses people have mentioned in the past just escapes me as far as logic.

    I can sort of see why people dislike a player like Drew Henson, who I was totally enamored with. I am a football elitist in the sense that I believe in football pedigree and am basically a snob about it. The right kind of school (Michigan), the right kind of size (6'4", 235 as opposed to 6'2", 230), big time arm. I have never been impressed with Tony's arm strength. It is adequate obviously, but he doesn't possess the canon I dream of seeing.

    Tony Romo is simply a great story. Sort of like Kurt Warner coming from grocery stocker to the NFL. How anyone cannot root for that is beyond me.

    He's flat out tough. What kind of an idiot doesn't respect toughness in sports? I mean seriously. Not only is there the San Francisco game where he played with broken ribs and a punctured lung, and still engineered a win, what about the 2010 Giants game that he was going to go back in, until a trainer stopped him. He has a fire we should all admire.

    He's a phenomenal athlete. I can't stand soccer, but he plays it, and by all accounts he is really good at it. He's an incredible basketball player, who at one time was one of the 5 best in the state of Wisconsin along with Caron Butler. He still regularly plays and by all accounts is a fierce competitor. I've heard he is the best basketball player on the team, and that is saying something given a couple of players we have had here, namely Martellus Bennett. Maybe that's why Bennett didn't like him, because he was better.

    He also happens to be a scratch golfer, capable of possibly playing on tour if that was what he was dedicated to. But it isn't what he is dedicated to. instead we constantly are told he is the first guy at Valley Ranch working out and watching film. He even takes time to coach Defensive players on what to watch for. When he got hurt he became a part time coach. How is that not admirable?

    These traits combine to make him an elite athlete who regularly pulls off plays no one else in the NFL seems capable of. The snap over his head against the Rams that he turned into a first down is awe inspiring to me. How can someone not like his obvious athletic ability? I don't get it.

    When no less than Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smith, who played with an icon at QB in Troy Aikman, have to remind fans about what might have happened going back to Bledsoe, or remarking that Romo saves plays no one else could, you have to wonder why people can't see it. I do wonder. His highlight film is littered with plays where he turns chicken crap into chicken salad. Most QBs would be sacked, stripped of the football, and left for dead. Tony finds ways to not only get away, but to complete the play. It is remarkable.

    When the icon that is Aikman remarks that Tony is better than he was, how can that praise be ignored? Yes, I do think Aikman was better, but the man is admitting he couldn't do things Romo does. Ignoring that just doesn't make sense to me.

    Danny White, not just a great QB, but also a pretty good football coach sees in Romo something rare. How can our fans ignore this? It is willful. It is basically just a tantrum.

    There's an old poem that goes like this...

    As a rule man's a fool
    When it's hot he wants it cool
    When it's cool he wants it hot
    Never wanting what he's got
    Always wanting what there's not

    I have a feeling that when Romo's career is over, and we are searching again for a QB who can lead us somewhere, that many of his detractors are going to realize just how silly they look. By then it will be too late. I have a feeling that if Romo takes us where we long to go that they will strip gears shifting their opinions and they will want to be congratulated for their newfound acceptance. I won't offer it. If others do that is their business. They've made their bed, now lie in it. I don't want to hear about their epiphanies. I don't want to hear their mea culpas. I don't want to acknowledge their high five. I don't want to hear how they really "hoped they were wrong."

    The dislike of him is so stupid that people care about who he has sex with. They care about him playing golf even though almost all players do, and every QB I've ever heard of does. So they hate that he's good at it? Ignorance. They care about the direction of the bill of his cap as if it indicates something about him. It's beyond petty in my eyes, and it is football stupid.

    So I've described enough about what I like about him. What don't I like?

    1. He didn't come from a QB factory college like BYU, Miami, Stanford, or Michigan. I'm a snob and elitist at QB, and I'd feel better to have a QB who was a highly rated, top recruit who became the all everything.

    2. He isn't 6'4". Abraham Lincoln was 6'4". John Wayne was 6'4". He should be too, because that is the perfect height for a QB.

    3. He doesn't have an arm that leaves your jaw on the floor when he throws an 80 yard, 65 mph pass.

    4. He's better at golf than I am. I am jealous. I admit it.
  11. ufcrules1

    ufcrules1 Well-Known Member

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    I get that he would have more pressure here. I think I made that clear when I said he wouldn't have had as good of a season here in 2012 as he did with the Hawks. With that said, I pointed out a clear example of a game in which Wilson had a lot of pressure and his running game and defense crapped the bed. Not to mention it was the second round of the playoffs against a 13-3 team IN their stadium. Remember his 2 WR's were Golden Tate and Sidney Rice as well.

    Wilson can handle pressure and he showed it in that game and a few others as well.

    Also, just so I am clear, you would have been ok with Peyton Manning behind our "horrible" line as well?
  12. Zimmy Lives

    Zimmy Lives Well-Known Member

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    Neither hater nor lover.

    1) Improvisation skills.
    2) Athletic ability.
    3) Moxie.
    4) Quick release.

    1) Cockiness.
    2) Seeming lack of leadership.
    3) Decision-making.
    4) Aloofness.

    I think the guy is a serviceable QB who can win a SB with the right team around him, I also think that is what Garrett is trying to build but Romo is getting older so it better happen quickly. I finally believe that Dallas should draft his eventual replacement in next year's draft.
  13. RoyTheHammer

    RoyTheHammer Well-Known Member

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    So you start your post insulting a bunch of people for not agreeing with your opinions on a subject.

    Then, in a thread talking about Romo's football skills, you list a bunch of superficial reasons why you like Romo, such as because he is a great guy and playful as a cute kitten, and a good golfer.

    Then you proceed to tell people they are stupid because they dislike him for superficial reasons, such as how he wears his hat, who he has sex with, and cuz he's a golfer.

    So on one hand, we should all like Tony for a bunch of silly, superficial reasons, yet if we don't like him for a bunch of equally silly, superficial reasons, we're football stupid.

    Fantastic. Call me when you actually get to discussing anything having to do with his on the field strengths and weaknesses.

    I did catch one quote in there that stuck out and actually was related to football though:

    The problem with this, is that we currently, aren't being lead anywhere.. except to Tony's favorite golf course in Cabo come each January. So i don't think its unfair at all to be having a discussion about his strengths and weaknesses.

    I've seen or heard enough from Tony over the years to know that he gets it. That the ultimate measuring stick for him is wins and losses and when he doesn't win, he's not doing his job well enough. Honestly, I think he gets that more than some of the fans do at times. This quote from the end of last season really sums this entire topic up nicely though, imo:

    "Your legacy will be written when you're done playing the game," Romo said. "And when it's over with, you'll look back. ... It's disappointing not being able to get over that hump."
  14. RoyTheHammer

    RoyTheHammer Well-Known Member

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    Im ok with Peyton Manning any day of the week, in any circumstance.. because he's arguably the best to ever play the position. So yes, it would be stupid to not want him on your team in any circumstance. Not sure how that relates to this topic at all.. but there ya go.

    Wilson did a nice job in the Atlanta game. He showed that day the ability to step his game up at times. However, i think it'd be different if he had to perform at that level every game in order to get his team into the postseason. I don't think he would get it done, in that situation, no. And that's what he would have faced had he been on our team last year.

    Let's see how he does if he ever has such an imbalance on offense as we did last year. No offensive line to give him adequate protection and no running game to release the pressure. To win in this league, you have to have balance on offense. I really believe that. You simply can't be a completely one dimensional team and expect to go anywhere. The fact that we even finished with the 6th ranked offense with no balance whatsoever and no offensive line to stop the pass rush that everyone knew was coming every play should show you how good Romo was for us.

    Even with how bad of a first half Romo had with turnovers, and how many more times he had to throw the ball, 650 times compared to Wilson 393 times, and even with defense keying on the pass all the time against us, Romo still only threw an INT every 34 passes, compared to one every 39 for Wilson. Not that big a difference all things considered. You can bet if Romo played there and Wilson played here.. well, i think you know who would have had the MUCH better season last year.

    To wrap it up, no.. i don't believe Wilson takes us anywhere last year. Not for a second.
  15. Idgit

    Idgit If you food, you gonna be ate. Staff Member

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    This is an interesting point, YR. How do you get at measuring too-much, or, too-much at the QB's discretion? I hadn't really considered the idea that the QB might be making things tougher than he needs to on his OL, but there could be something to that if it's measurable.

    And, +1 to the people saying Tony should get an extra measure of credit just for being tough. The dude's a beast when it comes to playing with injury. One of my favorite clips is him trying to go back into the huddle the series after he breaks his collarbone and him getting stopped by the trainer.
  16. RoyTheHammer

    RoyTheHammer Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed that clip, as well.. especially since, as you said he had just broken his collarbone, and to stop him from going back in, the trainer decides to reach out and grab him by the collar.


    Its no wonder we have so many injury problems every year. When Miles first had the hamstring problem a couple years ago, they problably stomped on his hammy and asked him if that hurt at all.
  17. Idgit

    Idgit If you food, you gonna be ate. Staff Member

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    This is a good thread. It needs to remain about its topic, and not become about the posters themselves.
  18. Idgit

    Idgit If you food, you gonna be ate. Staff Member

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    "Hey, is it your collarbone?" Tony: "Did he catch the pass?". Lol.


    I love the guy.
  19. GimmeTheBall!

    GimmeTheBall! Junior College Transfer

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    Oh, he has it. But not for the big games. He fattens up his stats all yar with patsies and always seems to come short in big games.
    Then the inevitable: At the presser he says the Cowboys "just have to do better."

    Enough! Jerra, please, start thinking about a younger QB to groom for the future. Romo aint it. You know it, I know it, Clove knows it and Bob Doles knows it.
  20. ScipioCowboy

    ScipioCowboy More than meets the eye.

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    Good thread and good points. Let's keep it informative!

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