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Rooney Rule

Discussion in 'NFL Zone' started by CanadianCowboysFan, Jan 5, 2013.

  1. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    And taking a page from the non-NFL world, I know several blacks who've told me they've been passed over for promotions while whites have been sought out for promotions. When they express interest in moving into management, one of the responses they get is "I didn't know you were interested in management."

    When you have a policy that mandates you consider certain individuals, you eliminate this dynamic - to some degree - because it addresses that "default" mechanism that has managers picking people they think make great managers and opens them to picking people (at least for the interview) whom they wouldn't have ordinarily considered.
  2. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    Again, I find it interesting that you can make a pronounce regarding what other people consider a waste of time.

    Did Dennis Green feel it was a waste of time? Have you spoken with him?

    Unless you're part of that process and has spoken to everyone in that process, you aren't qualified to say what is a waste of someone else's time.
  3. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    I know it's often cited, but I have yet to hear a sound argument logically concluding that the discrepancy between the amount of African American players and Head Coaches is relevant. This implies that by merely playing professional football you are automatically qualified to be a coach in the NFL. It's simply an erroneous comparison. A better measuring stick would be the number of minority NFL head coaches in relation to the percentage of the minority population in the U.S. at large.

    15.4% of the U.S. population is African American. By my count, there were 5 African American head coaches in the NFL last year out of 32 possible opportunities. This means that 15.6% of NFL head coaching positions were filled by African American coaches. Statistically, this almost exactly aligns to their representation in society.
  4. Manwiththeplan

    Manwiththeplan Well-Known Member

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    This is a poor argument because there is a coorelation between playing football and coaching it. I'd be willing to bet that every coach in the last 20 years has played football on some level. Whether it was in the NFL, college or HS. And while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I'm positive that more than 15.4% of football players are African American.

    That's why we don't see women coaches, or too many other ethnicities because the numbers that play the sport and thus learn it good enough to coach it are very small.
  5. koolaid

    koolaid Drink Me

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    I don't have a super strong opinion on this, but I feel that this rule has outlived its usefulness. I understand it gets people's names out there, but I just feel that what probably gets coaches hired in the NFL is what they have accomplished in their career.
  6. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    There are numerous players of various ethnicities, religions and creeds who are good football players but would be lousy head coaches. Head coaches must not only understand the game of football, but they must be strategic thinkers, strong communicators, excellent instructors and be leaders of men. Very few players possess all of these qualities. Based off of strength finder tests they administered, the Gallup organization concluded that only 6% of our entire population thinks strategically. Lets assume that this holds true (with a slight margin of error) in the ranks of the NFL, which is a microcosm of our society. So by this logic less than 10% of all NFL players, regardless of race, possess the strategic thought process to coach an NFL team. Former players may make for high profile head coaches, but it certainly doesn't mean that past players are more qualified to be head coaches.
  7. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    You're kidding right?

    Why would you compare the percentage of black NFL coaches to the percentage of blacks in America, most of whom include men, women and children and those who have never played the game on the NFL level, much less on any level?

    That comparison makes no sense. It's too broad. It's not defined.

    The better comparison would be those played in the NFL to those who coach in the NFL. Why?

    Because there's a greater concentration of players with NFL experience in the NFL than in the greater population.

    Furthermore, if coaching experience or NFL experience is a factor in hiring, then you would use numbers in the NFL as your comparison.

    Representative government follow the same pattern. If one is running to represent a particular district, the vote comes from that district. The percentages of voters in that district matter most - not voters in other districts.

    If a representative's district is 60 percent black and 40 percent white and he wins the election, why would one point to the overall population percentage of blacks in America (about 13 percent) then conclude that that representative shouldn't serve because the population that voted for him is less than 13 percent of the total population compared to the greater percentage of whites in America?

    Your comparison needs a context. You just can't go making incongruous comparisons.
  8. Manwiththeplan

    Manwiththeplan Well-Known Member

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    At no point are you even disputing that you have to play the game at some level to understand it enough to coach. Doesn't matter how smart you are or how much of a critical thinker you, if you have never played the game no one will higher you.

    And the truth is more than 15.4% of football players, even at the HS level are African American. So if it's not racism, or being better connected, why do more white HS players eventually become coaches, then black HS players?
  9. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

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    The discrepancy is relevant because when you have a high majority of minority players playing a sport, logically there should be a correlation of the minority players becoming coaches.

    The discrepancy is astounding.

    Part of this goes into asking the question 'why is there such a discrepancy.'

    Obviously, I agree with what Jason Whitlock often writes about...many players just have no ambition to become an assistant coach for years and 'pay their dues' and then move up. However, there are a lot of white coaches that get hire w/o paying their dues. And there are a lot of retreads that get hired.

    I don't think that there should be the same percentage of minority HC's as there are the same percentage of minority players.

    However, I believe that the discrepancy is so large that there is an issue with race when it comes to head coaches. Look at the minority candidates that put the work in, took forever to get a job while lesser white candidates who put less work in got hired and then the minority coach, like a Dungy, Marvin Lewis or Lovie Smith does a great job.

    I think the Rooney Rule gives us the best of both worlds. It doesn't force anybody to hire a minority coach. If the minority coach thinks it's a fraud, they simply do not have to take the interview. And in the end, guys like Dungy, Lewis and Smith get hired because they gain experience of getting the interview, it's made known that they want to be a HC and the networking gets their name around.









    YR
  10. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    A few problems with your argument.

    First, we're not talking just about leaders. We're talking about football leaders, i.e., coaches. You can be a leader in various fields of endeavor. You cannot be a football coach unless you understand football. Where do you find football coaches? You find them among those who play football, who've been around football. Your arguments are too broad.

    Second, where do head coaching failures come into play? What I mean is there have been many, many coaches who've gotten a chance to coach in the NFL who proved they weren't very good coaches. How did they get the opportunity? How did they fool the system? Were they truly good leaders?

    Third, if blacks players comprise 65 percent of the NFL, doesn't it stand to reason that at least some within the 65 percent would make good head coaching candidates? Doesn't the larger number increase the percentage of landing a good coach, compared to a lesser percentage?

    Fourth, we're talking about opportunities here? How do you know you have a potentially great head coach? Well, that potentially great head coach has to start somewhere. So he likely starts as a position coach then moves up to a head coach on the college level or he starts as a position coach in the NFL and advances. But here's the rub. What if the players don't even get the opportunity to occupy certain positions because someone has already determined that they don't have what it takes to be coaches, based on your argument above?

    Do you see how problematic your view is? It automatically assumes that a majority of the players won't be good coaches. Do you understand how that thinking closes opportunities to those who want to prove themselves otherwise?
  11. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    I'm not kidding at all.

    As I stated in my first post on this topic, I do not believe that merely playing in the NFL qualifies someone to become a head coach. I also accept it's possible for someone who has never played football at even the high school level to become a head coach, see Todd Haley.

    I could make a much stronger argument that women are underrepresented in the NFL coaching ranks than you could make that minorities are underrepresented.

    Again, I'm not conceding this point. Your entire argument is based off your belief that somehow playing in the NFL makes you a viable coaching candidate. There are numerous EMTs, medical technicians and nurses who perform at a very high level but would never sniff medical school. Your assertion that playing in the NFL somehow makes you NFL coaching material is as ridiculous is saying that everyone who works in a hospital is a viable M.D. candidate.

    Your analogy doesn't hold water. Our Republic affords citizens the ability to vote for whomever they see fit. If a largely African American district elected a minority candidate I wouldn't cry foul, it's their prerogative who they choose to elect. The NFL however isn't a democracy, it's capitalism, and a very successful form of capitalism at that. Players don't get to vote on who their head coach is. The powers that be (owners) choose who they want to coach the team that they paid hundreds of millions of dollars for. That's their prerogative. Again, there's no requirement that the head coach they select be a former player. If the board of directors for the company I work for selected a CEO who had no experience in my industry I may not like it, but it is their choice.
  12. Yakuza Rich

    Yakuza Rich Well-Known Member

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    There is no Rooney Rule in NCAA or HS football. Black players are the majority of the players in the NFL, but are in the minority of coaches. And there are plenty of black assistant coaches in the NFL.

    Right now, the Cowboys have 57 black players on a roster of 77 players (players on the P-S, I-R, etc. included). That's 74%.












    YR
  13. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    That's what I thought. :(

    But how was Haley chosen? And is he an example of those 6 percent who have the leadership ability to become a head coach because Haley failed during his time with KC?

    It's one thing to say that someone doesn't have to play in the NFL to be a coach. I agree.

    However, I would ask, then, what qualifies a person to coach in the NFL if you rule out the significance of playing in the NFL as a factor? How are you determining who gets to coach if experience in the NFL isn't a requirement? Something a bit more objective than subjective intelligence evaluations.


    If you change the definition of "underrepresented" and remove it from a context, sure.

    I could argue that teenage prodigies are underrepresented in the NFL coaching ranks. I could argue that transvestites are underrepresented.

    But those examples are irrelevant because they have nothing to do with coaching in the NFL nor do they consider the dynamics within the NFL.

    Women don't coach in the NFL because there are numerous issues involved in NFL process, procedure and culture that have nothing to do with intelligence or a woman's ability to coach.

    Actually, my entire argument is not based off that. My argument is that that is a viable foundation. It is a better foundation than your position that one merely needs to be a leader to be a good coach. No, one needs to know football to be a good football coach. One can be a good leader even if one is not a leader in football.

    As for your analogy, it's a bit off. If there are EMTs, medical technicians and nurses who perform at a very high level, it's a pretty good bet that they don't want to attend medical school than it is they can't get into medical school on their own merits, based on their own experiences. The same with your MD candidate analogy. If one is working in a hospital and understands medicine, that would better prepare one to apply to medical school and begin the process of becoming a MD than, say, a person who worked at McDonalds or worked in a chicken processing plant.

    You missed the point.

    My analogy was not offered to compare a democracy, capitalism or any other system of government. My analogy was offered to show that how we compare percentages matters.

    And my point is this. Percentages must be compared to that which they relate to. You don't compare the overall voting percentage in the United States to the voting percentage of a particular district if we're talking about who should represent a particular district.

    Similarly, you don't compare the overall percentage of blacks in America when you're talking about the percentage of black coaches in the NFL. Rather, you would compare their percentages of black players to black coaches because the former is a more representative population.
  14. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    Actually, I've said several times at various points throughout this thread that I don't think there is a correlation between playing at a high level and being a good coach. I do agree that if you haven't played the game at some level you will probably have a hard time getting hired. That level doesn't have to be the NFL though. There are plenty of people who weren't skilled enough to play professionally but still possess characteristics that could make them an NFL caliber coach. Mike Tomlin, who happens to be an African American, is a perfect example of this. His physical talent was only good enough to carry him to the division I-AA level. After coaching the Steelers to a Super Bowl victory I don't hear anyone suggesting he isn't qualified to be an NFL head coach because he never played in the NFL. I'd imagine he isn't cited as an example more (despite being African American) because he didn't play in the NFL and the "percentage of players to coaches ratio argument" starts to disintegrate the minute you question the theory that NFL players somehow make better coaches.

    With that said, the ratio of African American players to coaches data being used to support the Rooney Rule is exclusive to the NFL. I'd venture to guess that if you broaden the data set to include Division I, I-AA, Division II, Division III and even high school that the percentage of African American players is not nearly as concentrated.

    I'm not going to debate the merits of data with someone who hasn't provided any data to speak of. I don't know what percentage of HS football players are African American, and I'm guessing you don't either. I feel very confident saying that the percentage of African American players is not nearly as concentrated across the entire spectrum of competitive football as it is in the NFL.
  15. tyke1doe

    tyke1doe Well-Known Member

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    I think you created a faulty argument from the start because no one here has really argued that the percentage of black NFL head coaches should reflect the percentage of black NFL players.

    So, we've kind of got off track.

    I think what we are saying is that the Rooney Rule is significant because it allows those black position coaches and coordinators an opportunity to interview for head coaching jobs.

    They're already showing that they have the capability, intelligence and leadership to at least be considered for an interview; otherwise, they wouldn't be in consideration. It's not like all position coaches and coordinators are being recommended for an interview. Just those who show "promise."

    And, truth be told, even without the Rooney Rule, the same uncertainty with regards to white coaching candidates existed. No one really knew whether Jimmy Johnson, Pete Carroll, Mike Singletary, Jim Harbaugh were going to be successful coaches or flops. It's a guessing game. All the Rooney Rule does is expand consideration to other candidates in the very inexact science of picking a successful NFL head coach.
  16. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    That's a matter of human nature. It's the same reason people go back to ex boyfriends and girlfriends that flamed out the first time: comfort, not race drives this. For every retread like Wade Phillips or Norv Turner there's a Ray Rhodes or Dennis Green. Race doesn't drive retreads getting second and third chances, comfort does.

    I never said that there weren't African American players who would be good head coaches. I simply said that playing NFL football doesn't assure that you're able to become a good head coach and that for this reason, the ratio of African American NFL players to NFL coaches is not as relevant as the ratio of African Americans to the broader population. Your entire argument is based off of the notion that being an elite athlete somehow makes you more qualified to coach than someone who maybe was only an average athlete who played D-II football but was a better communicator/instructor. Let's compare the percentage of African American NFL, UFL, CFL, AFL, AFLII, D-I, I-AA, D-II, D-III and even high school to paint a more accurate picture.


    Here's where you're either misstating or misunderstanding my argument. My view doesn't disqualify NFL players from entering the coaching profession. It simply broadens the recruiting pool to include those who haven't played NFL football. If we're talking about a coaching pool that isn't restricted to former NFL players than the data used to support arguments shouldn't be restricted to NFL players either.
  17. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    YR, missed your reply when I was skimming through the first time. As I mentioned to Tyke, I think there's a strong argument to be made that the retread coaching candidates getting recycled is an issue of comfort, not race. After all, lets not forget that Herm Edwards, Ray Rhodes, and Lovie Smith are either retreads or soon to be retreads. It's easy for an owner to higher someone who's been an NFL head coach before rather than take a chance on a guy who hasn't, race aside.
  18. cajuncocoa

    cajuncocoa Bleeding silver and blue Zone Supporter

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    It's insulting, really.
  19. Star Guard_31

    Star Guard_31 Active Member

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    You may not be saying this but there are some who are quick to cite the discrepancy between African American NFL players and African American head coaches. I believe my fist post on this topic was directly addressing a poster who did cite this difference.

    I'm all for the best candidate getting the position regardless of race. In fact, I'd much prefer Tony Dungy or Mike Tomlin over Jason Garrett to be perfectly honest. The biggest problem I have with the Rooney Rule is that it's a policy that's unenforceable. I believe it was General Douglas MacArthur who said never make a rule or issue an order that you can't enforce. I think the past 6 years have shown that the Rooney Rule is not very enforceable.
  20. Manwiththeplan

    Manwiththeplan Well-Known Member

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    then fine, don't debate it. you are the one who tried to say that because African Americans made up 15.4% of the American population, it made sense that they would make up roughly 15.4% of the coaching population, which ignored the most basic qualification of being an NFL Head coach.

    And yes I don't know what percentage of HS players are black, and yes I would agree that the numbers aren't nearly as high as the NFL, but we both know it's significantly higher than 15.6% of head coaches that are black.

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