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Scout's Big Prediction: Hanna Contributes More Than Escobar

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by jobberone, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Sarge

    Sarge Red, White and Brew... Staff Member

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    ......and we clearly need all the help we can get in the red zone. It's a huge problem for this team.
    CowboysYanksLakers likes this.
  2. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    THE problem on offense last year followed closely by the running game.
  3. Sarge

    Sarge Red, White and Brew... Staff Member

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    Yep - and they go hand in hand.
  4. TheCount

    TheCount Pixel Pusher

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    You think it's weird people are talking about the position he plays and where he was drafted in July?
  5. Galian Beast

    Galian Beast Well-Known Member

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    I think Romo tends to be fairly conservative in the Red Zone. I think this can change if the team is more productive overall.
  6. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    I'll need to see him step on the field before I buy into this. The idea that a TE from the Mountain West is all of a sudden one of the best pass catcher in Dallas, and as a result of the guys on the team, in the NFL just doesn't work for me.

    As far as Romo needing weapons, Dallas is likely one of the most well stocked teams in that department. Dez, Miles, Witten. Is there another comparable trio out there? Julio, Roddy and Tony are the only one's I can think of. The Broncos now that they have Welker I suppose. Green Bay might but they have Rodgers who makes anyone a weapon. Same with Brees.

    The list is pretty small for teams that have a comparable WR/WR/TE or WR/WR/WR trio. On top of that, Dallas has a ton of young guys who at one time or another have shown some decent ability. Beasley, Hannah and Harris all had a couple of flashes. These are all guys who have limited time in the league, Harris likely the most at 2 seasons. At some point you either have to be satisfied with what you have in terms of weapons or you have to start developing some because spending draft picks on 4th or 5th options is misguided.

    I don't dislike Escobar but it wasn't because of a lack of ability that Bennett didn't work out in Dallas. Same with Fasano. I will not endorse the idea that both of these guys were incapable when they both left Dallas and produced far greater than they had while they were in Dallas.

    The the problem I have with the 2TE package. The team doesn't seem to have any idea on how to actually implement it and instead of reevaluating why Bennett was only running about 10 routes per game, they just swap out TEs and hope it all works out this time.
    jobberone likes this.
  7. birdwells1

    birdwells1 Well-Known Member Zone Supporter

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    Was the 2nd round pickfor Bennett a waste? Because that's what it'll be.
  8. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    I didn't use the word weird once. I don't have a problem with people discussing anything in this forum as long as its about the Cowboys and within the guidelines. To be nice and to clarify I said I didn't understand why so many are so concerned about being drafted in the second nor about the fact he's labeled as a TE. Does that answer your question?
  9. Deep_Freeze

    Deep_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    Well I would rather have the BPA then force a pick by reaching for OL in the spot.....especially since we had kinda just done that with our 1st rounder. It sounds good to say we just should have gone heavy in trenches or wherever your position of choice you think should've been picked, but thats not how the draft works.

    Its about talent acquisition, not reaching for need. I do like Hanna, but other than him, I don't see alot of talent outside of the big 3 you name (2 of which are older, and 1 being a hammy away from starting a rookie).

    I said before the draft that really this team can draft just about any position group and be justified in the pick cause every position group could use youth on this team, and guess what.......thats exactly what happened. Doesn't surprise me at all they went BPA after Frederick, only cause most fans and people here overestimate our talent at all positions on the team except the OL of course.
    5Stars likes this.
  10. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

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    I'm not positive but I think Dallas had a higher grade on Williams than they did on Escobar so they didn't necessarily go BPA. They certainly played their cards right if that's the case but I think it gives the BPA aspect a bit of trouble. Also, the fact that they did pick Frederick first hurts the BPA approach. They didn't go BPA for either of their 1st two picks. Granted for different reasons in that Frederick was an absolute need and they hedged their bets on Williams lasting longer despite the higher grade. Bottom line, BPA isn't how teams operate at all times. Not that it really matters, BPA only counts for something provided you've correctly scouted the players and it really only counts for something provided you'd even take the guy rated as BPA which Dallas clearly demonstrated that they would pass on. This in addition to the differences being small as the draft progresses. BPA in the top 5 pick can be the difference between an All Pro and a solid but not great starter. That gap closes as more players come off the board.

    Additionally, what good is going BPA if that player can't really help? Would you rather take BPA and have the guy be a part time sub player or take the guy rated just behind him who can start?

    Ultimately it comes down to making the best moves for your team. If the argument is that a #2 TE was a better move than other players than I disagree.

    Acquiring talent is worthwhile provided you can get production out of it. If you're just stacking talent to make certain aspects of the roster look good, you're wasting your time. At it's peak, Dallas utilized the 12 package less than 1/3rd of the time and in other seasons it was much less than that. What good is there in having talent that spends over 2/3rds of the time on the sideline?

    2 might be older and 1 might have injury history but that's still what they have. Neither Witten or Austin is likely to go anywhere any time soon. I think Austin is around for at least 2 years so safeguarding against the worst case scenario doesn't fly for me.

    You have players at WR and TE. You don't have players at S, DL or OL. You can't convince me that safeguarding against injury and age is appropriate when you currently have other spots that are depleted because of age and an overall lack of talent. That's like replacing the windows in your house when you have a leaky roof. Windows might look prettier and you'll probably be set for a long time with those windows but your roof is still leaking.

    I don't think the argument boils down to "who should Dallas have taken instead of Escobar" because I'm not convinced that Frederick was a must in the first place at #31. I've become a fan of the pick but I still think it's a hard sell to say he wouldn't have been available where Escobar was picked.

    In the end it doesn't matter. They stuck by the 12 package for whatever reason and now we just have to hope that in the 7th year of running it that it will finally produce the results they have been looking for.
  11. jobberone

    jobberone Right turn Clyde Staff Member

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    Those are all fair statements and good points.

    The only reason this player went in the 2nd where he was projected BTW is because of his ability to go get the ball and catch most everything in his radius. Dez, Miles, Witten, and Hanna do not have his ability to catch the ball that well. I urge you to go look at his film.

    And yes we need some more weapons particularly in the RZ. And we needed a move TE to complement Witten and Hanna. You're always trying to upgrade your roster and he's an upgrade to anyone not named Witten and Dez. Already. And if Miles doesn't stay healthy he's an upgrade there, too. Esp if Miles can't stay on the field. Our offense has failed us since the last five games of 2007. That's a major reason they took this guy. But I can understand the reluctance to believe any and all of that as he's not played one down yet. I and many others think this guy has some special talent. If he were a little faster and came from a bigger school then he'd have gone early.

    I just disagree with you on the ability to implement the 12. Past failure is not predictive of future failure in this particular instance. IMO. Bennett couldn't be relied on to be where he was supposed to be. And I think you're partiallly correct in that Romo kinda didn't look his way as hard as he could. His hands were suspect as well. We let the guy go and so did the Giants so....... We'll see in 6ish weeks or so.
  12. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    It was for lack of ability. There's a reason why Martellus Bennet is on his third team in three years and not in the role he was drafted for. Fasano's gone on to have a decent career, but they obviously thought he was not what they wanted, and they traded him away as a result.
    The problem isn't with the two TE set, at all. That's a good formation in today's NFL and gives teams some really great matchup options if they've got the personnel to play it.
  13. TheCount

    TheCount Pixel Pusher

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    Funny how technical some people can become when they feel they are being challenged. Suddenly, they're counting every syllable and everything becomes literal. For the record, you didn't use the words "I don't understand" either.

    My point was that it's the offseason and no one has seen any of these guys play a snap of NFL football, why wouldn't they be concerned/excited/whatever about his position and where he was taken? How much time did people spend discussing the 2nd round pick we didn't even make last year?
  14. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    FWIW, I did a double check when you used the word 'weird,' too, because I hadn't read his comment that way, at all. I wanted to see if I'd missed it, or if you were just overstating his position.

    As to your point, there's a gulf of difference between concerned and excited. Personally, before camp starts, I'm normally excited about players taken high with the expectation that they'll be able to improve their position group. I save my concern for position where we haven't done anything or enough to really improve. This season, that's most at RT and RG (though I'm not too concerned about OGs in general). Safety is another area where we've got a lot of options and a lot of question marks. TE is maybe the deepest position group on the roster. I'm nothing but excited about the TEs we've got and their long-term potential.
  15. TheCount

    TheCount Pixel Pusher

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    Your stance makes sense and even if I may not agree with every word, I understand both your concern and your optimism.
  16. Deep_Freeze

    Deep_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    Your making my point with BPA, sure they took Escobar over Terrance, but its obvious that they just plain valued a TE over a WR. Sure we need S, DL (youth, there is talent there though), and OL but you just can't go into a draft going after needs. If we were going more by positional needs with the 2nd rounder, I would figure we needed Terrance over Escobar plus Terrance was the higher ranked guy....but thats not what happened is it.

    BPA does have a large effect on it, but positional need is also involved to a certain extent the earlier you are in the draft. Draft a DL, and he is probably riding the pine. A safety or OL might start, but were there any on their board available right there?? Well from what we have seen from their board, the answer is no, so they went BPA with an aspect of the team they wanted to add for offensive versatility. As for Romo not needing more weapons as you have mentioned, he did show you what he can do with more weapons when Robinson (who wasn't part of those top 3) was here. Romo himself even says he wants weapons, don't know why we shouldn't give him what he wants.
  17. xwalker

    xwalker Well-Known Member

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    1. If the 2 TE package is going to be the base offense, then you really need some depth at the position. Without Escobar, they could spend all of training camp installing the 12 package only to be forced to abandon it with 1 injury to either Hanna or Witten.

    2. The TEs don’t necessarily have to be great blockers, per se if they are great pass catchers. The reason is that when a defense goes with base personnel, then they run a pass play and when the defense goes with nickel personnel, then they run the ball. TEs don’t have to be great to be a mismatch blocking nickel defenders.

    3. Hanna and Escobar are significantly different players. Their scouting reports are not similar. Hanna is 6-3 with great speed but questionable hands (in college). Escobar is 6-6 with great hands and average but deceptive athleticism.

    4. Using 3 or 4 TEs is not necessarily a good option for short yardage. As stated previously, they are a blocking mismatch against nickel defenders. The defense will not have nickel defenders in on short yardage against 3 or 4 TE sets.

    5. It's possible that they drafted Escobar in part because they like Hanna and want to be deep enough to commit to the 12 package. It does not necessarily indicate that Escobar is intended to replace Hanna.

    6. Rosario is a Free Agent that didn’t get any other offers (based on a quote by the player). I’m not sure why people now believe that he is going to automatically be a great contributor or would have prevented them from drafting Escobar.

    7. There is a high probability that they have different roles in mind for Hanna and Escobar based on their significantly different physical size, speed and skill-set. They can both be contributors. Even if Hanna in his 2nd year plays more than the rookie Escobar, it does not make Escobar a bad pick. Some of it could be match-up dependent.

    8. As stated previously, they need depth if they’re going to commit to the 12 package; otherwise, one injury takes that package out of the game plan. Also, Witten played all or almost all offensive snaps in many games last year and in previous years. They need to have a legit sub for him this year. If they’re going to run the 12 package as a base offense, then they only way to start reducing Witten’s total snap count is to acquire (draft) another TE that can fill in for him.

    9. Lack of accomplishment with the 12 package in the past is not a good indicator of the future. Anthony Fasano and Garrett were only together for 1 year; therefore, the only real option for the 2 TE set during Garrett’s time with the Cowboys is MartyB with Witten. The fact that something didn’t work with MartyB seems irrelavent to the current team. There were significant concerns about MartyB’s maturity/work-ethic prior to him joining the Cowboys. There are no such concerns about either Hanna or Escobar.

    10. Escobar as a significant contributor in the redzone seems legit. His game definitely fits the style of play required in that area.

    11. I don’t know if John Phillips never completely recovered from the injury a couple of years ago or if he was just not that good, but his play in 2012 was really sub par. In reviewing the Coaches Film, many plays failed due to Phillips. His run blocking was a big problem. He was not strong enough for power type blocks and not quick enough to make many of the required zone type blocks. His receiving ability was not good enough to consistently beat defenses playing their base personell. For the 12 package to be effective, the TEs must take advantage of mismatches in the passing game againt defenses using base personell.

    12. The bit about Escobar “playing faster” is some coach/scout double-speak. It does not really mean that he has to be a physically faster player than he is capable of being. Receivers rarely run full speed for the entire route. They use changes in speed as a method of getting open. Also, if they’re running 100% full speed, it reduces their ability to adjust to the ball. The coaches in OTAs probably wanted Escobar to get up to speed faster, not to have a faster top speed.

    13. Again with the Rosario stuff. He was a Free Agent that signed for near the vet min (715K). Why do people think that he is all of a sudden a possible significant contributor?

    14. For anybody that wanted a Olineman over a TE, it would have to have been a player drafted between the Cowboy 2nd (#47) and 3rd (#74) round picks. Anybody drafted after #74 is irrelavent in the Escobar discussion. That list is Larry Warford (#65) and Brian Winters (#72). It was reported that Callahan didn’t like Warford; therefore, the Cowboys would have had to reach for Winters at #47 and it’s doubtful that he would contribute this year due to Frederick being a rookie Center. Also, Winters was a Left Tackle in college and had not played Guard, his probable position in the NFL.

    15. It appears that the Cowboys traded down to fill a need in the 1st and then went with a BPA strategy for the remainder of the draft. They used “educated guesses” when picking Escobar over their higher rated player Williams and again when drafting Holloman over Magee; however, it is still a BPA over need strategy. The general consensus is that BPA drafting is the best method.
    Doc50, jobberone and Deep_Freeze like this.
  18. dallasfan4lizife

    dallasfan4lizife Well-Known Member

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    this is exactly the type of draft picks we get with jerry jones messing with player personnel.

    We definitely didn't need a dang TE in the 2nd round. try D-line, O-line, maybe even safety?? I know, crazy suggestions.
  19. Idgit

    Idgit Ice up, son. Ice up! Staff Member

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    We took a Safety in the third round. Anybody you liked at OL or DL in the second? Because I didn't see a fit there worth getting worked up about, much less banging on the old Jerry Jones drum over.

    As has been stated many times in this thread, given the offensive sets we want to run, there was an obvious need for TE depth, too. I can see not liking the pick--I didn't like it (liked the player a lot, not the pick), but pretending there was no need or that this was Jerry Jones requires ignoring the fairly obvious.
  20. Mr_Bill

    Mr_Bill Member

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    There aren't too many things that Rosario brings to the team. They include depth in case of injuries, the possibility of jettisoning Vickers' salary, special teams contribution and the ability to play F-back in certain situations. A long-term contribution is highly unlikely to be included.

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