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Super Bowl Teams & The NFL Quarterback Fallacy

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by MissouriCowboy, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. MissouriCowboy

    MissouriCowboy Well-Known Member

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    I just think off season needs need to be upgrade the offensive line. Not too worried about the defense with health return by time season starts. Point of this article I found is not all is Romo fault. So for you Romo bashers just think how bad this team would of been with Orton playing all year.
  2. iceberg

    iceberg detoxed...part 2 Zone Supporter

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    trust me. as long as you're here, we've got the misery.
  3. Coy

    Coy Well-Known Member

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    This:

    Flacco - 8 td´s no int´s, 853 passing yds with a rating of 114.

    Kaepernick - 3 td´s and 1 int, 496 passing yards with a rating of 106 plus 202 rushing yards and 2 td´s.

    You need great QB play to win in this league, and both this QB´s are doing just that.
  4. Coy

    Coy Well-Known Member

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    Of course, without that D they don´t win the super bowl but it´s not like Eli played bad, he was actually pretty good and not to mention clutch.

    Here are his numbers in the playoffs both years they won the SB

    2007 – 6 td´s and 1 int, 854 yards with a rating of 96.
    2011 – 9 td´s and 1 int, 1219 yards with a rating of 103.


    Unless you are the 85 Bears or the 2000 Ravens, you better have good and consistent QB play in order to win the SB
  5. MissouriCowboy

    MissouriCowboy Well-Known Member

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    Brady is a great QB (puke). Brady is missing one of his more important pieces (Gronk). Brady suffers.

    Does this = Brady sucks?

    Of course not. So why is it when the Rams run through a carousel of receivers and linemen, that it equates to Bradford sucking? That's not an indictment of anyone here, because I'm proud to say we've assembled the class of the internet when it comes to rational thinking and football acumen. But back to the point. If Bradford's best weapon is Amendola, and Amendola gets injured, and Bradford suffers, why does it mean Bradford sucks? And if Bradford's best linemen are essentially all injured, and Bradford suffers, why does it mean Bradford sucks?

    Help me connect the dots. Just using the Rams team as a example fellas work with me.
  6. Ntegrase96

    Ntegrase96 Well-Known Member

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    Are we using actually using Bradford as an example in this case? Or is this a hypothetical situation that applies to any QB in Bradford's situation vs Brady's? (hope this makes sense)
  7. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    A QB is one of like 3 positions in all of sports that can win a game all by himself. That's why it is so important. I don't understand how people don't get this idea.

    It happens all the time...how else do you explain all of the games where Tony plays lights out and we still manage to lose. I think 4 times in the last 2 years, we have missed a FG that would have tied or won a game in the last seconds. Twice, the Cowboys have had a punt blocked and returned for a TD in the last 3 years in either the 4th quarter or OT when the Cowboys lost by one score. Tony played the greatest game for any QB, ever, in a loss to the Gints last year. How can you possibly blame Tony for things like that? Is Tony perfect, no, but winning QBs benefit from teams that can win even when a QB does not play lights out. That is the only way to explain how guys like Johnson, Dilfer, and Eli win Super Bowls.

    There is not another QB in the league who deals with all of that, Jerry, and just the general lack of organization on game days and still gets his team - which is amongst the league leaders in penalties - in position to go to the playoffs. Perhaps you can so Romo is not a leader b/c he doesn't get guys to stay onsides, but at some point, you have to hold other players accountable. Romo bashers want a scapegoat, but the reality is that, by blaming him, you excuse every other player (Ware, Witten, DeMarco, Dez and whoever else) of their mistakes. That is the reason we are 8-8, not Tony.
  8. Ntegrase96

    Ntegrase96 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you understand what most 'Romo bashers' gripe with Romo is... or maybe I don't, I'm not sure.

    I would consider myself to be part of that 'Romo bashing' group, but I'm not someone that unrealistically thinks that Romo can win games in spite of the team around him.

    I don't blame Romo for the Cowboys inability to win, there is plenty of blame go 'round. I hold Romo accountable for his poor situational awareness and his stunning knack for folding when it matters most. And IMO, the latter of which is seemingly why other 'Romo-bashers' have issues with number 9.
  9. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    That's the difference, and I think he does it all the time.

    Like I said, I don't think he's perfect, but no QB in this environment could be. And, because of the ineptitude of the team around him, every mistake he makes becomes more significant because nobody ever picks up any slack.
  10. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    just how often do we have people take up the slack?

    Not very
  11. Ntegrase96

    Ntegrase96 Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with anything you said. Well, other than the 'all the time' aspect of it all... I don't think it's all that often.

    Romo sometimes creates some magic and wins games for us. So, yeah, sometimes when he makes a mistake (Missing Miles on that throw against the Giants for example), his mistake is amplified.

    I don't think that the Cowboys are very good without Romo in the W/L column.

    But then again, as much as Romo has the ability to elevate the team, he also has an uncanny knack for making mistakes at the worst possible time that can absolutely decimate a team. And when it comes to big games, I feel that his tendency to do the latter is much greater than the former.
  12. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    BUt one could also say that when no one else steps up he feels he has to make a play and that is when he pushes too hard

    The Ravens had Pollard step up and kill have the Pats

    the 49rs had several guys step up and make plays

    How often has this happened with the Boys

    Lets see:
    Carr against the Steelers
    how many others?
  13. Ntegrase96

    Ntegrase96 Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to look too far. Look at the last game against Washington. Dwayne Harris put Romo and the offense into position to get back into the game, then the Defense forced the Redskins to punt giving Romo and the cowboys offense the ideal 4 minute drill with 3 timeouts to get 6.

    We all know how that went.

    Also the Browns game comes to mind. Spencer forces a strip sack to all but seel the game by giving the Boys great field position for either a TD or FG, and then Romo fumbles... another inexcusable mistake. Then the defense actually holds the Browns out of the endzone only for the Cowboys to play it safe and Romo and crew don't get a first down.
  14. Wahoo Cowboy

    Wahoo Cowboy Member

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    The fact of the matter is, AT THIS MOMENT there are only 8 QBs active in the NFL who have started in a Super Bowl.

    Tom Brady (3-2)
    Ben Roethlisberger (2-1)
    Eli Manning (2-0)
    Peyton Manning (1-1)
    Aaron Rodgers (1-0)
    Drew Brees (1-0)
    Matt Hasselbeck (0-1)
    Rex Grossman (0-1)

    With two obvious exceptions, this is a who's who list of the "elite" QBs in the NFL. I think those two exceptions are important, though, because they demonstrate the types of QB everyone points to when they say football is the "ultimate team game." Yeah, you can go to a Super Bowl with a pretty good QB in Hasselbeck or even a not very good QB in Grossman. I would compare them to the more oft-cited (because they won) QBs of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer in terms of their ability, respectively.

    But it's clear that, right now, you have a much better chance of getting to and winning a Super Bowl with an "elite" QB. Joe Flacco will join the starting-in-a-SB list in a couple of weeks, and all he's done is win the most road playoff games ever (the ones that, along with those week 17 games, are so unfair to criticize Romo for losing) while throwing 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his last 7 playoff games. Colin Kaepernick, well, I think he's going to be a super star.

    What's my point? Do I not think Romo has what it takes? Personally, I still believe he has the skills to go to a SB, and not just as the Hasselbeck or Grossman type. My only hesitation is in him stringing together 3-4 consistent performances against playoff-caliber competition. But let's not pretend that in this "ultimate team game" that there isn't one player far more important than any other. If you want to upgrade the OL to help Romo or think the defense has underperformed, then those are legitimate arguments. However, if Romo is as good as a lot of people here say he is, then he should play in a Super Bowl at some point in his career because that's usually what "elite" QBs do. Even Dan Marino had his chance. If the current pattern continues and he retires without even sniffing a championship game, then it might just be that he wasn't as good as we all thought he was.
  15. CxC1993

    CxC1993 Member

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    Excellent & rational post OP. :star:
  16. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Here are their records when their team did NOT rank in the top 10 in defensive passer rating or offensive rushing TD:

    Tom Brady (0-0)
    Ben Roethlisberger (0-0)
    Eli Manning (0-0)
    Peyton Manning (0-1)
    Aaron Rodgers (0-0)
    Drew Brees (0-0)
    Matt Hasselbeck (0-0)
    Rex Grossman (0-0)
  17. cowboyeric8

    cowboyeric8 Chicks dig crutches

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    Haha somebody upset?
  18. kelc

    kelc Member

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    I would point out that The Ravens and 9ers QB's stepped up and made plays to.They didn't throw 2 int's in first half.The Skins game was 7-7 till just over 3 minutes in third quarter.Not bad for a injury riddled defense. Did Romo step up and make big plays to help his D.
  19. Wahoo Cowboy

    Wahoo Cowboy Member

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    I took a look at the rushing TD numbers for the years Romo has started, including 2006 but excluding 2010. I also include 10th place, the Super Bowl winner, and the Super Bowl loser afterwards.

    2006: 3rd-21, 9th-15 (Two teams tied), 6th-17 (Colts), 11th-14 (Bears)
    2007: 10th-14, 10th-14, 7th-15 (New York Giants), 5th-17 (Patriots)
    2008: 22nd-12, 10th-17, 11th-16 (Steelers), 18th-14 (Cardinals)
    2009: 15th-14, 10th-18, 3rd-21 (Saints), 12th-16 (Colts)
    2011: 30th-5, 10th-15, 6th-17 (Giants), 3rd-18 (Patriots)
    2012: 27th-8, 9th-16 (Two teams tied), 6th-17 (Ravens), 6th-17 (49ers)

    The numbers the last two years have been putrid, but I think this sheds a small bit of light on the idea that Romo has had a terrible OL his entire career. His OL was not bad from 2006-2009, and in those years Dallas either exceeded the amount of rushing TDs of one of the Super Bowl teams or came within 2. The sack numbers bear this out as well, I think; he was sacked 25 times or less every year from 2006-2009 except 2009 (34), and he has been sacked more than 34 times both of the last two years. Hopefully the rebuilt line fares better in 2013, but I think people remember the 2007 playoff second-half and assume it was always bad.

    Let's try the same thing with defensive passer rating.

    2006: 20th-83.2, 10th-75.9, 15th-80.4 (Colts), 3rd-66.5 (Bears)
    2007: 5th-75.1, 10th-77.1, 17th-83.4 (Giants), 11th-78.1 (Patriots)
    2008: 20th-86.2, 10th-77.2, 2nd-63.4 (Steelers), 30th-96.9 (Cardinals)
    2009: 16th-83.5, 10th-76.4, 3rd-68.6 (Saints), 12th-80.6 (Colts)
    2011: 25th-88.4, 10th-80.6, 21st-86.1 (Giants), 20th-86.1 (Patriots)
    2012: 29th-94.7, 10th-80.0, 11th-80.6 (Baltimore), 6th-78.0 (49ers)

    Outside of 2007, none of these numbers are great. However, I would claim that only 2012 is horrible, as it is the only year we were double-digits away from the "magic line" of 10th place and also the only year in which it was 90+. In addition, every other year Dallas' defensive passer rating was either better than one of the Super Bowl teams or came within 2.9 points.

    I don't have an ultimate point to this, and your statistic is true. The only other QB during this time to play in a Super Bowl without being top-10 in one or the other categories is the now-retired Kurt Warner. What it DOES show is that Dallas has performed considerably worse in these metrics the past 2 years than in years prior.
  20. CowboyRoy

    CowboyRoy Active Member

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    Most important yes. But if the QB doesnt have an Oline or a defense or a head coach where does that leave him?

    How about Marino handing off to felix jones with Garrett calling the plays and Free blocking for them. Bwaaaaa!!!!

    Oh yah, then connor, Simms, having to shut down Brady and Co. Bwaaaa!!!

    This team going 8-8 and being in it until the last game for the NFC east was a miracle. And Romo was the biggest part of that miracle.

    Had we made the playoffs, we would have been embrassed the next week anyway. So all of this is just silly talk. This team is embarassing and its a lot of things. Least of which is Romo.

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