1. Welcome to CowboysZone!  Join us!  Come on!  You know you want to!

The fallacy of the playcalling argument

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by erod, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    It's not all or nothing. The bottom line is that dumbing down things that you have nor real understanding of in the first place posits nothing.

    A team changes OC and they win the Super Bowl so obviously that means it's the playcalling? Really? You find merit in that line of thinking?

    People dumb down an OC's responsibilities down to DERP PLAYCALLING! and they do it over and over and over and over and over again.

    When I do read stuff from people that I respect their acumen like Sturm and Vela I never see the DERP PLAYCALLING routine. They talk about play execution and formation trends. Actual specific observations. What a novel idea.

    Again I go back to dumbing things down that you do not grasp in the first place posits nothing.
  2. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Well-Known Member

    1,959 Messages
    684 Likes Received
    Well while your name calling the fact is changing OCs WAS the reason the Ravens got better. Talk to any NFL pro/analyst out there. Cam Cameron ran an outdated offense and didn't use his personnel properly. Ray Rice was getting the ball 44 % when he was there. It was ruining play action and the deep ball. After Caldwell took over they ran 51% which opened up the play action and gave Flacco freedom. Cameron even said it worked. You just saying it doesn't make a difference doesn't mean squat when your patently wrong!! Im amazed that so many people attack people's intelligence yet still defend everything that has caused this team to fail for over a decade.
  3. superpunk

    superpunk Benched

    26,328 Messages
    73 Likes Received
    Or why we hand out Coach of the Year honors.
  4. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    That is not namecalling. I did not call anyone anything.

    I am not saying that the new offensive coordinator did not make a huge difference in their offensive execution. What I am saying is that trying to distill that down to and characterizing it with the "DERP PLAYCALLING" is dumbing it down.
  5. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Well-Known Member

    1,959 Messages
    684 Likes Received
    Sorry it just seemed like you were saying that people are dumb and clueless if they think the OC makes a difference. I just think it does when there are teams that are effectively masking their deficiencies by fitting the play calling to the personnel....exams above..Green Bay...bad line, no RBs
  6. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    That is not what I said nor is it what you were saying. You cannot make a point if you keep on changing it.

    This discussion is about playcalling as cause and not about the architect of the offense.
  7. T-RO

    T-RO Well-Known Member

    4,405 Messages
    319 Likes Received
    Good post, erod.

    The rampant harangue surrounding play-calling is a tell-tale sign of an immature fan.

    The reality is that Cowboy problems have very little to do with the plays being called. Some perhaps. Not much.
  8. superpunk

    superpunk Benched

    26,328 Messages
    73 Likes Received
    When game in and game out you see this team come out flat and ineffective on offense, until they get behind and have to toss the gameplan out, I think you can pretty safely infer that there is some sort of problem with our coaching; either playcalling/gameplanning/having the team ready to play.

    Combine that with the fact that as an organization we are making playcalling changes...

    What in the heck do you want people to conclude?

    There is an art to playcalling. It's why Norv Turner will have a job in the NFL as long as he wants one - because he's got a knack for timing and is regarded as one of the finest playcallers in the league.

    The fact that it's a simplistic explanation doesn't make it untrue. It also doesn't mean we don't have other very serious problems.

    But every sign in the universe points to Garrett as an incompetent playcaller/gameplanner/whathaveyou. We aren't overhauling the staff and (maybe) replacing him (idk guys we'll figure that out sometime between now and August, k?) because he's awesome at it.
  9. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    I am just a reductionist and put little to no stock in gross generalizations.

    Was something wrong? Sure, that is obvious but stuff like "we can safely infer that something is wrong with our coaching" just sounds like throwing crap against the wall in a closed-minded way and "every sign in the universe points to Garrett as an incompetent playcaller/gameplanner/whathaveyou" just sounds like a butthurt extension of that to me.

    I don't think it's an unfair standard to qualify assertions with something of quality and your 'deductions' hardly meet that standard. It's obviously heavy on emotion and generalization and short on empirical proof. You call others out on this all the time.
  10. Dhragon

    Dhragon Deadly Claws of Death

    1,335 Messages
    204 Likes Received
    We might be giving a little too much emphasis on playcalling when other things are much more a part of what is wrong than that (O-line being bad main one IMO). Yet, it still puzzles me why one of the two plays at Romo's arsenal whenever the opposition starts to blitz alot (the "Kill, kill" play) is not a screen or some such which can kill a team who blitzes.

    We've gone whole games with little or no "anti-blitz" play calls even when the opponent is blitzing all the time. Why is this?

    A playcaller has got to know when certain plays will be needed. Garrett doesn't seem to get this IMO.
  11. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    He hasn't been replaced as of yet has he? He said in his press conference to the question, 'Is it your decision, ultimately, as to who calls the plays?' with a direct 'yes.' I reduce it to particular statements made by him and the lack of an announcement as to who may or may not take over the duties.

    I don't even disagree that he seemed to have too much on his plate. I recall him arguing with the ref over a bad spot of the ball and have to give up on it to call a play.

    Wow a specific example!
  12. 5Stars

    5Stars Here comes the Sun...

    26,730 Messages
    1,811 Likes Received
    I'm not sure if it's the play calling, the execution, or the players/coaches themselves?

    However, what confused the hell out of me is that during the end of the 3rd, or at the beginning of the 4th qtr most times. for example, when the Cowboys are down, say by 14 or 17, all of sudden the offense comes alive and almost or does win the game! Who is at fault for that?

    Romo.
  13. TwoDeep3

    TwoDeep3 Well-Known Member

    6,461 Messages
    2,305 Likes Received
    Think the defense changes at that point to try and protect against the pass, which is governed by the passing rules that favor the offense?
  14. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    I don't identify anyone in particular as a cynic and I personally do not define a cynic as someone who disagrees with me. Cynicism is an idea and not a person anyway.

    I don't even label for example, punk, as a cynic. I just like specific examples if you are going to attribute cause to something. I don't think that is unfair.
  15. justbob

    justbob The Peacemaker Staff Member

    6,958 Messages
    361 Likes Received
    Thanks for keeping this on thread and eliminating any personal remarks.
  16. 5Stars

    5Stars Here comes the Sun...

    26,730 Messages
    1,811 Likes Received
    I think your are right...that stupid "prevent defense" crap!

    "hey, guys, we are up by 17, so let's lay back and don't let them pass"

    How ignorant is that!

    Oh, hell to the no! I would go with what got me to the dance in the first place!

    If I'm up by 17, I would do the same things that got me there in the first place.
  17. HoustonFrog

    HoustonFrog Well-Known Member

    1,959 Messages
    684 Likes Received
    Yes it is what I said. It's what I said directly when I made the Ravens reference and a Packer reference in my first comments. You started going off about it even referenced the "click" remark. I again clarified it by showing how they changed philosophy with their same personnel. Go reread my post to the OP that you then commented on right after.
  18. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

    33,928 Messages
    2,890 Likes Received
    Exactly right. Norv is the first example that always comes to my mind as well.

    It's pretty funny, really. We like Garrett, so we'll just pretend that one of his deficiencies is merely a myth.
  19. Hoofbite

    Hoofbite Well-Known Member

    32,585 Messages
    2,242 Likes Received
  20. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

    16,609 Messages
    2,485 Likes Received
    What's a myth is you guys mentioning a play and demonstrating on any level the ability to evaluate play calling. Personally, I don't know enough about coverages, route combinations, defensive formations and their offensive counterparts to be able to make what I would consider a decent evaluation. I never see you or most anyone else do it either.

    The offense is certainly a problem and of course Garrett is more than a little responsible for that but applying cause to something where you cannot articulate anything but generalizations because of at best incomplete information is what is deficient.

Share This Page