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The fallacy of the playcalling argument

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by erod, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. BraveHeartFan

    BraveHeartFan We got a hat. I want a ring.

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    Great post.

    I'm not 100% in agreement with it but I do believe it's got a great point that definately does factor into our offensive problems.



    I'm not saying that what he says here is the only reason the offense struggled but I do think he'd understand the issues quite a bit better than myself or any other fans on a message board.
  2. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    So you have an issue with play calling but you cannot mention any plays? That's nice.

    I cannot go into specifics by looking at an accountants ledger and say how good an accountant is. You would say an accountant is not very good because his client's profit is not that much from year to year.

    It's common practice to oversimplify a difficult problem so you can easily point the finger.

    From what I understand -and I am more than willing to admit I do not know enough to judge playcalling myself- there are route combinations and protections in pass plays as a well as the particulars of running plays. Running plays seem simpler calls but I just do not know. These are the very basics though.

    Now how are you supposed to evaluate playcalling when you cannot even speak the language? You see this over and over again when you see people talk about 'they always pass down field' when in fact you look at the plays they call the route combinations are not all downfield even when the ball ends up going down there.

    When it comes to how running plays are called I can only laugh at people that put that on what Garrett calls. Not everyone agrees that abandoning the run before you even try is a good idea although maybe with that oline Joshua was right.

  3. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    What same blitz? I recall them blitzing but not every time much less everytime the same way.

    I recall coverages that took away our hot routes. I know this because the tele-analyst pointed it out. Someone would adjust and there was a defender right there.

    No doubt that he got outsmarted by Haslett that day.
  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Well-Known Member

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    Who did Red outsmart in the 2012 season? No one and no one fears playing Red's offense. I think a healthy Austin warrants some attention and non Dez will but the offense as a whole isnt going to scare you.

    Its been the same formula for years...blitz Romo and play the quick routes. No real running game and play for the turnovers. The Ravens called the same game plan in 2009...Red is terribly predictable.

    No one has called Red innovative or a leading OC since his coming out party year when he still had Tony S as his training wheels.

    His job as OC & HC is two fold; 1)Put the players in the right place & play to beat the other team and 2)Make sure the players know what to do & execute.
    He's not doing either one well generally.
  5. Bluestang

    Bluestang Well-Known Member

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    [IMG]

    This was the first blitz where both LBs blitzed through the A-gaps.

    - This was purely KO's fault pure and simple. If you watch the All-22 KO doesn't get his head turned towards Romo until it is way too late and KO cannot locate the ball to make the play. KO was supposed to take one step and look back at the QB to anticipate the ball. KO takes like 6 instead and then looks back to Romo when Romo has already thrown the ball his way. In this NFL Turning Point video there is a part where Romo is telling KO, "take a step and boom if you take 10 your late..."

    My best assumption is that Romo had pre-determined where the ball was going before the snap on the look. He obviously knew that it was going to be a blitz so he had to get the ball out fast and KO was the hot read but unfortunately I don't think KO realized it until it was too late.

    Why he didn't go to Witten is probably because if he hits KO, KO has room to run with Witten as a lead blocker to pick up the 1st down or possibly more.

    [IMG]

    London Fletcher comes off the edge untouched because there is confusion on blocking assignments on the OL. Parnell lets a rusher through his inside shoulder, Bernadeau and Cook both block the same guy, Livings blocks a LB instead of 72 forcing Murray to block him - that's BoB blocking fundamentals.

    6 rushers for 6 blockers, no one should be double teaming.

    [IMG]

    This final INT was the result of Rob Jackson reading Murray and peeling off his rush because he has dual responsiblity. If Murray stays in he rushes and if he leaks out he follows him.

    6 rushers for 5 blockers, once again the ball has to come out quick and Jackson knew it.


    It's hard to do anything when you have free rushers coming at you. Let's also not forget how Austin and Dez were out of the game which probably affected the play calling to some degree too.
  6. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    LeBeau as had been widely discussed. I am not sure of the other games one way or another. And please do not waste our time fronting about the emotional disposition of NFL defensive coaches towards our offense. You have no clue and you do everyone a disservice that is interested in the truth.

    And for someone that cliams the offense is predictible you have demonstrated no capacity to predict anything. You seem one of those 'run, pass, pass, pass, run, run' types that thinks that is predicting plays.
  7. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Thanks for the post stang.

    I very much so appreciate your approach.
  8. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

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    Nice try, but Shinywalrus already shut you down on this.

    Let me ask you this, did Doug Free suck last year? I guess you don't know since you don't know what steps he was supposed to take, what the guard next to him was supposed to do, etc. on every single play, right?

    No. Sometimes from watching many years of football plus other teams around the league, you can just tell.

    And if you don't want to believe that, listen to other observers around the league. Pretty much none of them think Garrett is a top playcaller or OC.
  9. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Walrus did nothing of the sort and you should reread and reevaluate which post he was addressing. Protip: it was not mine.


    As for Free I can come up with specific problems. I do not know the exact technique but I know some basics and can also lean on guys like Broaddus who does. Because of this I can articulate specifics like he had poor footwork and would cross his feet and end up off balance. He was poor out of his drop step either overcompensating and being susceptible to inside moves or be vulnerable to speed rushes. His punch was decent but his hand strength or lack thereof made it so he could no sustain blocks.

    Lo and behold specific examples

    What are you able to articulate?

    Sorry but that is just weak as hell.

    And please point to which 'pundits' you claim. I know that it's not Vela, Broaddus, Archer, or Sturm. They don't even waste their time with this 'playcalling' nonsense. Then you have guys like Laughenburg who laugh at people that take your approach.

    Again specific examples of pundits.

    I am guess you are the type that listens to GAC and reads McMahon. Regurgitate that narrative.
  10. Bluestang

    Bluestang Well-Known Member

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    [IMG]

    Look at how Free's footwork is in poor position from the snap. On the opposite side Smith has kicked his anchor leg (left) and is ready to slide and punch. Free on the other hand has put himself at a disadvantage with his footwork and has no anchor so to speak of.

    [IMG]

    This is the result of that poor footwork, no anchor and Free gives up ground.

    Even though Free got his footwork cleaned up in the second half of the season he very rarely played with any sort of power. I'm still puzzled how he put two good years together and then completely did a 180 in terms of performance. Something doesn't add up because you can see him play with power in '09 and his footwork wasn't a question in '10 or '11.
  11. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    And then there is what Stang comes up with. Well done, good sir.
  12. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Well-Known Member

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    You think Jason ran a great offense in 2012? I don't.

    He is predictable, thats what he is know for. He is predicable in both his down and distance calls AND more so in his formation calls. His formation "tells" have been crystal clear since he started, its his weakest point. He has little experience as a OC so this is to be expected. I dont get how folks think he is going to become a genius offensive mind with no experience doing it. Thats awesome if he could but he hasn't.

    Do a google search of "dallas predictable offense." It will bring up a list of folks talking about it. They range from NFL players, coaches down to media folks and then the Bob Sturm types. There is a few years worth of reading for ya.

    If you think they are all wrong, more power to ya brother but don't tell me my opinion is wrong nor are you anyone to dispute the collective folks saying his offensive IS predictable. There are even a few company articles on the official site talking about how much less predicable they were in there play calling this year...lol.

    What's worse than the predicable part is that Red is stubborn and slow to adjust, that's the slow starts are all about. He cant even crack 300 some days.

    Here's a recap if ya missed some games and only want to look at stats:

    http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...ding_cowboys.html?blockID=864005&feedID=10194
  13. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    If you listen to the recent Callahan interview, he said that -- when Jason was calling plays last year -- everyone on the staff knew what the call would be based on the down and distance. He said this in a way that was intended to support the argument that it didn't matter who was calling the plays. But it's really a damning quote. If we're that consistent or formulaic on playcalling, it's not a good thing.
  14. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Well-Known Member

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    You have Ed Reed and Ray Lewis publicly saying the same thing.

    I am sure if you gave Andy Reid a six pack and a box of donuts, he would also fess up the same.
  15. Chocolate Lab

    Chocolate Lab Run-loving Dino

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    Fuzzy, you're successfully dragging me into the muck on this, but let me simplify: Your premise on not knowing if someone is a good playcaller or not was that you don't know enough of the details of the play to evaluate. Free was just an example, but the point is that if you carry that out, you could just say that none of us fans know enough to evaluate anything on the field because we don't know every single variable that the coaches and players know. We don't know the technique a player was asked to play. We don't know the injury status of every player. And so on.

    But that's fine, you can hide behind that if you want to. I'll continue to know that Garrett is average at best -- at the very best -- as a playcaller and OC. (I do like how you cited a collection of Garrett fanboys as evidence to the contrary, though.)
  16. CoCo

    CoCo Well-Known Member

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    I know you dismissed those listed by Fuzzy but I would be interested in hearing the names of these observers around the league you're referring to.
  17. CoCo

    CoCo Well-Known Member

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    On second thought it really is immaterial. There isn't an expert in the league that will condemn Garrett as OC or playcaller. No one is going to be that critical publicly even if they feel that way privately.

    Beyond that, those who speak highly of Garrett - Aikman to name one - are simply dismissed as "fanboys."

    The fact is that there is no compelling evidence to suggest that Garrett's work is either beyond criticism nor that it is subpar. For every positive statistic, it's dismissed by his critics by "well with Romo, Dez, Witten & more any OC could put up those numbers" or "that's because they play from behind so often." For the shortcomings its explained away by the lack of talent on the O-line or durability at RB.

    It's really a debate that goes nowhere. Some like Garrett, others do not.
  18. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    Drag you down in to the muck? More like you are trying to dodge my point. I never said everyvariable but at least some of the variables.

    Specific examples. That is all I am asking for.

    Free was certainly an example. An example of how you can give specifics to demonstrate your point. Now you have resorted to whining about it instead of arguing the point.

    I mean heaven forbid you actually mentioning some of the plays he called if you are going to criticize them. Know the plays he calls and what went wrong is not an unfair standard. You fail on both counts.

    Deal with it.
  19. FuzzyLumpkins

    FuzzyLumpkins The Boognish

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    And do you really think that Ed Reed and Ray Lewis were saying this about the Cowboys offense after we put up 481 yards on them?
  20. superpunk

    superpunk Benched

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    I can't start threads so I'll just leave this here.

    http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2013/02/garrett-overview-6-years-of-data.html

    Six years in and this is the best we can manage.

    "It demonstrates that the 2012 Cowboys had the 52nd best season in Cowboys history in running the football. Technically, they had the worst rushing season in Cowboys history on a per-game basis, but the 1960 Cowboys finish last due to a 12 game season. Had they 16 weeks, we are reasonably sure that the '60 Cowboys might have been able to find 217 more yards on the ground.

    Think about that. Of all of the Cowboys teams ever, you might have just witnessed the single worst year of rushing the ball. Brutal on every level.

    In fact, if you wish, the Cowboys seasons of running the football with Jason Garrett as the offensive architect rank 52nd, 35th, 37th, 20th, 42nd, and 40th in Cowboys history. That's right. His best season is only 20th best in the history of the franchise. And before you tell me it is because the league has changed to a passing league, explain this: The New England Patriots (perhaps the most pass-first team in the NFL, right?) have run the ball 398 more times than the Cowboys in the Garrett-era. And as you can see, 398 represents an entire season of Garrett rushing attempts. I will repeat: the Patriots have run an entire year's worth of rushing plays more than Garrett in 6 seasons."

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