The Great Ingram Debate

Discussion in 'Draft Zone' started by CowboysLaw87, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. CowboysLaw87

    CowboysLaw87 Well-Known Member

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    From early on in this draft process, I've had two favorites: Melvin Ingram and David DeCastro. I've grown to love Barron and Cox as possibilities too, but with Cox likely being out of our range I've reverted back to thinking about Melvin Ingram, who at this point very well may be available. And I think I'm changing my tune on him.

    I originally viewed him as perhaps the most explosive rusher in the draft. Quick first step, great spin move, fluid in his motions, and incredibly versatile (can rush from literally any position in the front 7). But in looking further, I find myself unsure about these two characteristics: short arms/general gross lack of length and anchor v. the run.

    The anchoring v. the run part becomes particularly important because the writing seems to be on the wall for Spencer's eventual departure. This means we'll need a new full-time starting SOLB. Therefore, we wouldn't draft Ingram if we didn't think he could be that guy. The team has opined and I agree that a huge part of the responsibility at SOLB is "setting the edge." I'm not sure Ingram can do that because his short arms will allow OT's and TE's to lock onto him easily, and he's really more of a finesse player. He's got a squatty build that's suitable for run stopping, but he didn't show a ton of interest in anchoring v. the run at South Carolina.

    The short arms are an obvious disadvantage in pass rushing, where you need to maintain separation from lineman. The 3 most important measurables for rushers are their short shuttle, 3-cone drill, and arm length IMO. Ingram had the shortest arms of any DL or LB at the combine. I guess I'm not saying I'd be upset if he's our pick at 14 by any means, but he doesn't look to be a can't miss, bonafide replacement for Spencer. I've got him below both Barron and DeCastro at this point.
  2. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    Ingram isn't a top flight 4-3 DE prospect largely based upon his arm length.

    He has no issues with anchoring versus the run or with quickness or explosion scores however. Those are both top notch. He anchored inside at DT in the SEC.

    He is very explosive on tape against draftable SEC talent.

    He was 3rd amongst all pass rushers in the combined explosion metric:
    Bench +Vert+Broad Jump

    He ranked 5th in collegiate sacks over his career and 6th in tackles for loss.
    He didn't play on the line every play so produced quite a lopt for a part-time DT/part-time ILB/part-time DE.

    To me the safest pick in this draft is Kuch. But Ingram isn't far behind. He may not have the ceiling of an elite guy like Ware but he has great hands, great power, great awareness ... as well as a solid bull rush and spin move. Those are moves Spencer spent 3 NFL years obtaining.

    BTB did a great job breaking down all metrics and Ingram was the only guy to hit all the major marks. Agility, Speed, Production and Agility.
  3. SDogo

    SDogo Not as good as I once was but as good once as I ev

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    I have been in a love/hate relationship with Ingram for the last 3 months. There was a time I doubt he had a bigger this point I'm getting splinters up my butt from sitting on the fence.
  4. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    I see a Lamar Woodley clone and wonder what's not to like.
  5. CATCH17

    CATCH17 1st Round Pick

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    It's those stubby arms!
  6. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Backwoods Sexy Staff Member

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    You have gotten my attention...tell me more. :eek: :p:

    On a serious note...It's hard not to like the guy because of his motor and production but you also worry a little due if he would fit right in your system and the measurables.
  7. cowboysooner

    cowboysooner Well-Known Member

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    I just don't see how he gets to us. I've thought for awhile that Ingram to the Jags just does not fit, but Ingram to KC or Arizona seems like a natural. Those teams have some nice 3rd and 4th round picks playing for them outside, but he would immediately improve their olb play and given his versatility he would be a slam dunk pick for either.
  8. Deep_Freeze

    Deep_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I don't see him being there, but if he is, we would probably have to take him. I could see the Jerry big grin saying, 'I can't believe he fell to us', then immediately putting Spencer on the unemployment line.

    Those T-Rex arms do bother me though and it will be something he will have to work through.
  9. johnnyd

    johnnyd Active Member

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    There was a similar thread a few weeks back talking about all the OLB candidates and this quote about Ingram has stuck with me whenever i hear his name.

    Melvin Ingram, South Carolina: He moved around a lot in college and has experience playing OLB, but NFL teams have struggled finding a position for him in the pros. At 6-1, 264, Ingram may be too short and compact for outside linebacker. He has 31 ½ inch arms. That’s trouble. “Big tackles and tight ends will be able to get their hands on him, and then he’s done,” one personnel man said
  10. Idgit

    Idgit That sounds really boring Staff Member

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    I like the player. I don't see him as an upgrade to Spencer, though, and would hate to use our first pick to tread water when we've got other needs.
  11. tm1119

    tm1119 Well-Known Member

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    I like him. He reminds me more of James Harrison than Woodley. Dumerville is a good comparison as well. They both have 32 inch arms and it doesn't seem to bother them too much.
  12. BlindFaith

    BlindFaith Well-Known Member

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  13. AbeBeta

    AbeBeta Well-Known Member

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    So that means we pass on him for a guy who more looks the part?
  14. jterrell

    jterrell Penguinite

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    If Ingram had 36" arms he'd be a top 5 pick IMHO.

    He has the other measurables you want in an edge pass rusher and has more strength, run playing skills and hands than you'd ask for even if being greedy.

    The stubbiness is a wart but that's the only reason he has a chance to make it to 14.

    Ware had warts too... it's just hard to believe they ever existed now because we see him dominate every week.

    Ingram versus Spencer isn't close. Ingram is a far better player. He has a much more versatile skill set and played the very best in college and the Senior Bowl standing out.

    I still say Cox, Ingram, trade down.
  15. theogt

    theogt Surrealist Zone Supporter

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    None of these guys have 36" arms.

    Dwight Freeney 32 3/4-inch
    Lamar Woodley 32 7/8-inch
    Clay Mattews 32 1/4-inch arm length
    Trent Cole 32 7/8-inch

    Are we really making a big deal out of 1" arm difference? That seems ridiculous.
  16. Deep_Freeze

    Deep_Freeze Well-Known Member

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    Yeah at this time of the year, every prospect is picked apart. But Ingram would be perfect for a Ryan D, and heck if Jerry just wanted to spend money he could keep Spencer for a year and move Ingram all around the field.

    I don't think he will be there, but if he is, we just have to think about picking him up.
  17. CowboysLaw87

    CowboysLaw87 Well-Known Member

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    His metrics for explosion were all great. Short shuttle and 3-cone drill were in the top 3 of DL at the Combine. The production and versatility is there too. All of this is why I'm not saying I'd be upset with the pick at 14.

    I am saying, however, that I don't think his overall skill set makes him an ideal replacement for Spencer, and while some may think it's "stupid" to look at arm length, I am concerned about it. It has been called the measurement that is most highly correlated to success as a pass rusher.
  18. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Staff Member

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    That's how I see it.

    He's short + he has short arms... Shorter than the other guys in both height and arm reach.

    And it's not like his speed is "electric". We're not talking a sub 4.6 guy here.

    On top of that he was productive in college, but hardly dominant in his senior year save for a couple of games. He went a month between sacks. We're not talking someone like Terrell Suggs who had 22 sacks his final year.
  19. JackWagon

    JackWagon Well-Known Member

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    *chuckle* ... i hate when that happens :)
  20. CashMan

    CashMan Well-Known Member

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    I think after hearing all of the negative on Von Miller pre draft, has me rethinking a little when there are knocks on these guys. Before hand, I was always thinking about how Mike Mamula moved up the boards with his combine.

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