1. Welcome to CowboysZone!  Join us!  Come on!  You know you want to!

Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver due to government underfunding

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by trickblue, Aug 19, 2009.

  1. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    I think that's an important point, because tight immigration regulations pretty much guarantee that while you're bringing someone new into the system, you're also bringing in someone who can be taxed to help pay for the system.

    With the healthcare system that's being proposed now, I think they've at least made the right steps towards limiting the financial impact of illegal aliens. They'd be treated in emergency situations, just as they are now, but they wouldn't have access to the actual insurance plans which would allow them to see G.Ps. or get prescriptions at co-pay cost. That's about all you can do, I think.

    We certainly do have a unique challenge to face when it comes to immigration and there aren't a whole lot of good solutions. Granting amnesty to a bunch of low income workers who would drain the system without being taxed would be devastating though. That just can't happen.
  2. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Well, what if we can just make healthcare funding more manageable by reducing the overall cost? You don't necessarily have to cut another program in order to balance the funding issue.
  3. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    I'd argue that strong economic ties protect most of the free world. We're not going to be seeing Germany invade Poland again and it has nothing to do with our military presence in the region. The only time we defend the free world is when our interests are at stake (see: Kuwait) and that's really how it should be.

    Do we deter military action from countries that are largely independent of the global market, like N. Korea? Sure. But in most situations I think that the fear of economic isolation is enough of a deterrent to keep the free world from tearing itself apart.
  4. ScipioCowboy

    ScipioCowboy More than meets the eye. Zone Supporter

    14,815 Messages
    2,027 Likes Received
    It's not just countries invading other countries or the threat of Imperialistic powers. It's the violent, militaristic acts of organized groups, who may have no strong affiliation with any single nation but may have connections within a group of nations.
  5. ScipioCowboy

    ScipioCowboy More than meets the eye. Zone Supporter

    14,815 Messages
    2,027 Likes Received
    In others words: Can we get more than what we're currently getting simply by moving money around?

    I don't know.
  6. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Here's an interesting fact sheet that I stumbled across while doing research on some things.

    http://udallcenter.arizona.edu/immigration/publications/fact_sheet_no_2_health_care_costs.pdf

    I don't know anything about the Udall Center or it's political leanings, so I won't vouch for the data. However, something that caught my eye was the percentages of illegal immigrants who have health insurance. According to the information, 41% of unauthorized adult immigrants already have health insurance through their jobs. Of course, both the jobs and the insurance were illeglly acquired. Regardless, having insurance through employers does cut down on the financial burden to the U.S. government.
  7. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

    34,504 Messages
    1,494 Likes Received

    Not so fast Mas. The language in the thousand page bill says this but the language in the Pelosi/Reid Democratic Bill that is also being drawn up does not according to what I've heard. Now, I can not confirm this because the bill has obviously not been released but from what I'm told, the plan in that billis to offer healthcare to everybody. Also, and you have to kind of put down one bill and read the other, the President is proposing Amnesty for all illegals. I did not like this policy when GW was in office and I like it even less now. I don't think you award citizen and them expect them to go out and work. Now, if we can somehow allow them to work for it and then obtain it, that's OK with me. Bottom line, if amnesty is granted, then we all have a big problem.
  8. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

    6,722 Messages
    35 Likes Received
    Volume of patients. Not to mention the 20 to 30 million illegals.
  9. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

    6,722 Messages
    35 Likes Received
    The vast majority don't make squat so paying into the tax system is kinda a joke. If you don't make anything, you generally get a earned income credit. Not pay into it. They will cost us anyway you look at it.
  10. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Well the military can't really act as a deterrent against non-nation state forces. Our intelligence community can find them before they act, certainly, but the sheer power of the military doesn't stop the violence from being planned. The only way that the military can act as a deterrent is with the threat of retaliation. That threat is virtually eliminated when there is no solid, large entity to strike back at.

    As an example, it was easier to retaliate against the Taliban than Al-Qaeda.
  11. Rackat

    Rackat Active Member

    2,134 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Anything that the government runs, it runs over budget, under staffed, and more times than not with little to no customer service. Have you ever had exceptional customer service at any government ran office? I mean that seriously. When is the last time you dealt with any government office and came away feeling like you were dealing with anything but the least common denominator that could do the job for the least amount of money so that the money could be reallocated to some other program?

    I.R.S. - ever heard anything good about them?
    Social Security - anyone ever say they get enough to sustain a decent living?
    Medicare/Aid - has more loopholes than the I.R.S.

    How about state/local government?
    Driver License - was it an enjoyable experience for you?
    Tag Agency - did you like dealing with the form pushers?
    City Water/Trash collection - they ever do anything extra for you?

    The list goes on and on. There is no government agency that can ever provide better than the private sector. So, no, the Baby Boomers are not the deal breaker for me. The fact that it will be government ran is the deal breaker.

    That is the way our family has taken care of each other for genrations. I just want the damn government to stay out of my pocket and out of the healthcare business so I can do that for my folks.
  12. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    That's what I was saying, actually. Most illegal immigrants don't make enough money to contribute to the system, they just act as a drain.
  13. Rackat

    Rackat Active Member

    2,134 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    A very large drain.
  14. masomenos

    masomenos Less is more

    5,971 Messages
    0 Likes Received
    Volume can be overcome by increased infrastructure, that's not really an issue. It's just an old adage of engineering that if you can make something work on a small scale, then you can make it work on a large scale (and vica versa). Problems with volume can be overcome.

    Also, not all illegals are uninsured, so the number isn't quite that high.
  15. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

    6,722 Messages
    35 Likes Received
    Got it. just misread I guess. it has been a very long day today at work.
  16. ScipioCowboy

    ScipioCowboy More than meets the eye. Zone Supporter

    14,815 Messages
    2,027 Likes Received
    The defense budget includes far more than just funding for our armed forces. There's a significant expenditure for special ops, secret projects, technology, and research and development.

    We can't fight a conventional war against non-nation factions. But we can and regularly do hit terrorist camps and the like, which aren't necessarily affiliated with any specific country. President Clinton, for instance, had an opportunity to take out Bin Laden in the 1990s. And we've been killing Al Qaeda operatives and leaders, who aren't align with any nation, for some time now.

    These types of missions require surgical and precise timing, which is why research and new technologies are so important.

    Now I have no idea how universal healthcare would impact our budget and its current expenditures (such as defense spending).
  17. ABQCOWBOY

    ABQCOWBOY Moderator Staff Member

    34,504 Messages
    1,494 Likes Received
    In the old days, the U.S. could accept as many immigrants as we wanted, so long as they were sponsored. That's how many of the Italian, Irish and Chinese made their way here. I think that's a good policy. Essentially, somebody had to guarantee an immigrant a job. I think we should look at that again. Their are dozens of places that employ illegals. Instead of fighting against this, we should try to figure out how to make it work for us. Incent small privately owned business to imploy and register immigrants who qualify for work. I just think that this kind of approach helps everything.

    I've said it many times. I am for opening our boarders to anybody who wants to be an American and goes about it the right way. I am against anything else because it will only server to destroy our economy IMO.
  18. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

    6,722 Messages
    35 Likes Received
    Not true in many cases. Especially in a government mandated pricing system. Infrastructure/manpower increases cost dramatically but the payments from the government do not increase eventually creating a deficit, or maybe I am just too tired to understand what you are saying.
  19. JBond

    JBond Well-Known Member

    6,722 Messages
    35 Likes Received
    I have thought about that also. It sounds like a decent compromise after the basics of a fence and deporting the convicted criminals takes place.
  20. CanadianCowboysFan

    CanadianCowboysFan Lightning Rod

    15,299 Messages
    338 Likes Received
    Is the problem illegals or is it that people will hire illegals because they can pay them next to nothing? No one would illegally immigrate to the US if someone wasn't willing to give them a job.

    Seems to me that you should prosecute those that hire them more harshly than the immigrant him or herself.

    In the end, you have to give medical care to the illegals for no other reason than they are human beings and you cannot just let them get sick and die.

    Question though, when it is said the US has 45 million uninsured, does that include illegals or are they are not counted because they are illegal?

Share This Page