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Utah students hide guns, head to class

Discussion in 'Political Zone' started by Doomsday101, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (CNN) -- The senior at the University of Utah gets dressed and then decides which gun is easiest to conceal under his clothes.

    If he's wearing a T-shirt, he'll take a smaller, low-profile gun to class. If he's wearing a coat, he may carry a different weapon, he said.

    He started carrying a gun to class after the massacre at Virginia Tech, but the student says he's not part of the problem of campus shootings and could instead be part of a solution.

    Nick, who asked not to be fully identified so his fellow students wouldn't know he carried a gun, he says he has had a concealed weapons permit for more than three years. But it was Seung-Hui Cho's murderous campus rampage that made him take a gun to class.

    "Last year, after Virginia Tech, I thought 'I'm not going to be a victim,' " Nick said.

    "My first thought was 'how tragic.' But then I couldn't help but think it could've been different if they'd allowed the students the right to protect themselves."

    Days after another campus shooting -- in which five students and the gunman died at Northern Illinois University -- students at colleges in Utah, the only state to allow weapons at all public universities, are attending classes. See which states have laws about hidden weapons on campus ยป

    Nick says his gun doesn't make him feel immune from attack. "But I feel that I will be able to protect myself, and I'm confident in my training and my ability," he said.

    His confidence is not shared by fellow student Griselda Espinoza, who recently transferred to the university. Some 28,000 students attend the school, as of the latest enrollment figures.

    "I feel less safe knowing that a stranger sitting beside me in class may have a gun in his or her backpack," she said.

    "The only people that should carry guns are trained officials."

    The University of Utah had no comment and referred inquiries to the state Board of Regents. Amanda Covington, Utah State Board of Regents spokeswoman, also would not comment on the current gun laws on school campuses.

    However, she said the regents are opposing a legislative proposal to allow people with concealed weapons permits to have the weapons visible in public.

    "We are worried that it may affect their [students' and teachers'] willingness or desire to go to or teach a class on campus," she said.

    The University of Utah, based in Salt Lake City, had prohibited firearms on its campus until that ban was struck down by the state's Supreme Court in late 2006. The institution, backed by all other universities in the state, is still fighting through federal courts to reinstate the ban.

    But state legislators could be moving in the opposite direction, considering a bill to modify current law to allow people in Utah -- including students -- to carry loaded weapons openly.

    Utah State Representative Curtis Oda said the bill, which he is sponsoring, is merely to clarify that people with weapons permits may carry a gun openly or -- with a concealed permit -- they may hide it for the sake of surprise.

    He stressed that people with permits have gone through rigorous checks.

    "When you see someone with a gun, you are looking at some of the most law-abiding people in the state," he said.

    The issue goes beyond campus. Last year, a few miles from the University of Utah, a man walked into Trolley Square, a Salt Lake City shopping mall, and opened fire. Police were there in only three minutes, but the shooter had already killed five people and wounded four others.

    "And not just shootings, but [serial killer] Ted Bundy did some of his crimes at the University of Utah campus," said David Seelly, a recent University of Utah graduate who says he carried a concealed gun on campus.

    "If one of those ladies was a concealed-weapon holder, she could've stopped him before he did as much as he did."

    To get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, people in Utah must, among other things:


    Be 21 years old


    Have no criminal record of violent, immoral or substance-related crime


    Be mentally competent.

    Student Kevin Rechtenbach of the University of Utah said he was open to carrying a gun, but not certain that would solve problems.

    "If acts of terrorism continue on campus, then I will have no choice but to carry a concealed weapon," he said.

    "But you see, that is where the problem lies: Everybody will end up carrying concealed weapons, and everyday problems will be solved with guns rather than words or even fists."

    The only places on campus that have restrictions are the dormitories. Students can request a roommate who doesn't carry a gun.

    Private colleges in Utah, like the Mormon Church-owned Brigham Young University in Provo, do have more power to ban weapons on campus, but that, too, causes disagreement among students.

    "I own some guns, and I wish I was allowed to have them at school," said Collin Barker, a BYU student. "I would just keep [them] in my car for target shooting."

    Casey Matheny, from Plano, Texas, now studying at BYU, appeared indifferent to the debate over students carrying guns.

    "I don't mind if they have one, I just don't want to know about it," he said.

    Rob Morrison, a BYU student from Ontario, Canada, doesn't think that having guns on campus would necessarily stop a potential killer.

    "The people that do it want to commit suicide anyway," Morrison said. "But it would give students a chance to defend themselves, and at Virginia Tech, it could have ended sooner than it did." E-mail to a friend

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html
  2. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    Beat me to it.

    If criminals and crazies know that there is a chance someone can shoot back at them, they will pick someplace else. Like a NO GUN ZONE.
  3. ThreeSportStar80

    ThreeSportStar80 Benched

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    I like the idea of being able to carry a conceal gun around with a permit of course...
  4. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    If people are crazy...I don't think they care one way or the other...especially if they plan on killing themselves anyways.
  5. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    One thing for sure professors think twice before failing a student.

    Are you sure I got an F? :lmao2:
  6. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who can plan out these attacks are not really all that crazy. You notice that no one attacks police stations, or NRA meetings, or anyplace like a COP bar. Or local gun clubs. No they pick places where very public NO GUN ZONES signs, etc are posted. Which is what just about any college in the country is now.
  7. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Yes the long list of serial killers are not crazy...even though the majority of them planned out their attacks.
  8. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what your definition of crazy is. Serial Killers know exactly what they are doing and very good about staying under control of the situation.
  9. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Sure...that is why the dog ordered the guy to kill and why the beatles told charlie how to order his people. They aren't crazy.

    I mean anyone that would chop off his mothers head, stick it on the fire place mantle and throw darts at is not crazy.

    Anyone that would try to make a human zombie sex slave while also keeping their body parts around the apartment as furniture or food could not be crazy.

    Nobody would be royalty and figure that bathing in blood would be considered crazy.

    Nobody would consider a guy cutting up a young child and making a stew out of it or inserting 20+ needles in his groin area or putting cotton balls soaked with alcohol in his bum before lighting them crazy.

    Nobody would consider a guy that would cut up prostitutes like he was doing medical autopsies on them to leave in alley ways crazy.

    IMO many of these serial killers do not get a ruling of insanity because the judge or jury feels they would be let out before too long and continue what they did before. Many of these people however are crazy as crazy gets and there is no denying it no matter what a court house says.

    Actually off the top of my head Ed Gein was the only one of the many infamous serial killers that the court did find legally insane.

    I don't care what evidence people give...some of this people are looney tune insane and insanity does not mean you don't know how to plan things out.
  10. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    As was pointed out- define CRAZY.

    I think that a lot of these killers are a whole lot less crazy then all too many believe.

    Someone that can methodically plan killing is obviously not all there; but then a whole lot of people are the same way but do not kill anyone. So what is the line- killing vs not killing?
  11. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    Would you argue that any of the cases I mentioned were not crazy people?

    I am not talking about a spouse that was abused, was cheated on, found out their spouse was abusing their child or something along that line. I am not talking about a situation where someone is defending themselves.

    Can you honestly believe that the VT shooter was not crazy? I mean did anyone see those videos of him they found afterwards?


    Now this does not mean I am opposed to having the person imprisoned for life or get the death penalty...but it does not change the idea that for people to do some of these they would have to be crazy.

    Look we can agree to disagree on this issue but I just for the life of me can not see anyone deep down not believing that some of these people are flat out crazy.
  12. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    Sure some of them are- but I bet not all of them are. THis last one- they are saying that it happened because he was off of his meds. So was he crazy?
  13. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    VT guy? Heck yes I think he is crazy. Meds or no Meds...The only good thing about him is that he killed himself and saved us time and money doing it for him. I can't say it for all killers like the DC snipers and others.

    However all of the ones I put on my list earlier in the thread are sure fire nutbag crazy IMO.
  14. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    No, the NIU guy.
  15. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    I did not say they were all sane but there is a differance even youself said "many of these people are crazy" I'm saying not all are crazy.
  16. BrAinPaiNt

    BrAinPaiNt Brotherhood of the Beard Staff Member

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    I can not give a honest opinion on this guy as I really have not followed the case enough to know crap from shinola. However with the VT guy...yes I think he was crazy.

    However as I noted above...I don't think the same for the DC Sniper guy(s) so I don't think they are all crazy.
  17. vta

    vta The Proletariat

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    They're functioning crazy. They know better, they know how to avoid detection and they know how to maximize their actions and minimize their own personal risk: prey on the weak.

    Albert Fish, Dahmer, Ed Gein or Charles Manson, they may have had a chip loose, but they were fully functioning, reasoning individuals, with a sense of self-preservation. Not enough, obviously, but some. People like that surely care where they do their work, becuase it will be stopped if they are not.
  18. Doomsday101

    Doomsday101 Well-Known Member

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    Same with Doug Radar (BTK killer), this guys was a top figure in the local town church. His killing spree stopped for a while and after he was caught they found out the reason was as his kids were getting into their teen years he wanted to spend more time with them, as they got older BTK went back on the prowl.
  19. burmafrd

    burmafrd Well-Known Member

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    The FBI does not publicise it much but their Behavioral Unit thinks that there are a quite a few serial killers out there that are not suspected because they do one or two, then go several years before killing more. The Green River killer is the classic example of a serial killer that took his time. Those are the types I am talking about= they know right from wrong but still do it anyway.

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