Discussion in 'Off-topic Zone' started by JBond, Jan 10, 2013.
So do I. :
I think people understand their choices and make the ones they choose to live in. Anyone can renounce the the trappings of everyday life, 86 cell phone, tv, car, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice. But I would that person would not expect others to finance that choice to the tune of physician pay. What I find troubling is that people think if they make that sacrifice that government should mandate other people have to make up the difference so that income transfer can cover the cell phone bill
It would be very naive to think that "profit" fosters and germinates corruption more than another economic model. I do not see profit as a pejorative. When people become comfortable they stop trying. In 225 years of America, which was a big part in the Industrial Revolution, I woudl think that "quality of life" has undeniably improved more than any other time in history. Profit and competition has made travel affordable to the masses, etc.
There is a concept of economies of scale. Businesses are able to lower production costs the more supply they produce (Fixed vs variable cost), etc. One of the benefits "profit" has given is the ability to increase market share by penetrating/exploit market in order offer products to other areas at lower prices.
A parent can still stay home if they decide that is what they want to do. Some do and sacrifice some creature comforts for the family, others do not. Maybe people dont need 2 cars, 3000sqft house, etc. but if they choose that then so be it. We cannot legislate one parent stays home, that is an infringement on liberty. I dont buy that people cant do that now because of "profit." or living expenses. Thinking back to 1970s, many families had 1 car and 1 income. - No cable bill, no cell bill, etc. It can be done
I dont think people consciously want to veg on the couch, but I do think people get comfortable and if they know they can coast through, many do. I worked at a Fortune 50 company that was the largest employer in the area by far. II would say 30% were completely coasting. These were accountants that could use 2 worksheets in Excel these people were making 30% more than me taking 8 hours to do a 115 minute job. This is even more pronounced in government and educational systems as they are set up today. So when I think "value", I think being able to grow and expand your skill set, knowledge basis and have a valued input to is better than churnig out TPS reports for 30 years.
Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to dissuade you, but many times "idealism" sounds good, but it requires mandating action that infringes on others who dont buy in.
That may or may not improve "quality of life" depending on ones perspective
maybe it is myself and those around me but sitting on one's laurels are just not in the DNA we strive for perfection in all we do...don't you..I wouldn't sit down and say well I did this I am going to stop trying now...I think that is selling people short...where is the pride of a job well done and feeling of acomplishment what of a goal on leaving the earth better than you found it than no one's job is finished to stop trying.
as far as paying for someone telephone bill that is not what I am talking about...lets say that the absolute minimum a person to have a decent standard of living is $1500 dollars a month (purely speculative upon might part) those who are not meeting that standard are provided assistance up to that amount...that means they still have to be prudent and not live outside their means but it doesn't leave them in a poverty situation.
IF everybody is entitled to that money just by being born than any extra money they earn is taxable but they are able to keep what is left to save for luxury items or however they wish to spend it. you than remove poverty and though you may not have removed classes from society you might have at least removed the poor.
People that are poor have a greater tendency to also be poor in backbone and drive and lack self esteem... if you can elimanate that you have more people that will be able to contribute to the common good.
as far as those you believe would skate than they are not in a job where their passion comes into play...people are passionate about different things and that is where inevitably their love and times goes..if we made it where I have to work for this company because the pay but rather I could work in oceanography and don't have to worry about the bills... you get people who are passionate about their jobs and there are no skaters.... but so long as the $ comes into play you remove passion and replace it with greed.
If you could work at anything you would like and didn't have to look out for the money would you be doing what you are doing or would you be doing something else with joy and passion.
I might write or I might do art or I might grow stuff in a garden I might take care of the elderly or got to the dog pound at take some dogs out for a walk...I would do something and I would do it with vim and vigor. Others like my lady likes to work in a drug store she enjoys it. You will find that almost all roles will get filled but by passionate and dedicated people.
Trekkies, transformer geeks and NJ, thats a triple whammy for me.
out of curiosity, since you are in germany, what is your thought of the Euro-debt crisis and germans supporting Greece?
Two people need to get a room. :laugh2:
Well I can tell you that from what I heard alot of the problems Greece had was from corruption and people living over their means..I wasn't upset about the initial bailout but the subsequent one from mishandling the first and than having so many Greeks blame the Germans for it was out of line I thought.
As far as our conversation I still think I am doing a poor job in describing what it is I mean...for you still think that I am trying to bail out people from poor life decisions..I am not trying to do that as I am more trying to create a new environment with freedom from money concerns to get people to concentrate more on life and love...
I just believe that they would make the right choices it might take a few go's at it but I think in the end people might surprise you. Also most people who have a passion in something can usually find a way to be productive in it if not in the way they would have first conceived. I believe that in order for us to evolve into something better we are going to have to learn to trust people making the right choices.
I'm one of the teen/twenty-somethings of this gen. Please, tell me all about my sense of entitlement and lack of work ethic.
So you are basically hoping people would be growns ups and use the system to offset themselves enough so that they can "focus on life and love."
Just what planet is Germany located, anyways?
Humans by nature never do this...some do but certainly not enough.
Don't worry, it's not your fault Ultimategamer, you can blame your parents.
Does your userName suggest you are the ultimate at video games? How does that speak to work ethic?
The username I used back on a forum seven years ago. It really isn't even relevant to my life at this stage, just easy to remember. Serves no point outside of getting me on to the Zone. Regarding my parents, I wasn't spoon-fed anything as a child. If I wanted something, I had to work on the weekend to earn it. Yard work usually. What modest income I have is done by busting my *** and getting it done. And I will admit, it's not always easy in the work-force - even at a young age of twenty. Mainly what I don't agree with is how most of us get lumped in with the lazy individuals who wasted a college loan and lack a defined plan and derection for their lives.
Well maybe you're not really being lumped in. Existing within an epoch doesn't automatically mean you're the reflection of it, and you have no real cause to be offended, if you work like you say you do.
In fact, your generation should be the trump card. You are the one who stands to lose a great deal because of the misguided choices of the one preceding. Your generation is the one being sold a bill of goods based on hardcore materialism and instant gratification and the worship of certain people in high places.
We have to walk a thin line commenting within the rules of the board, so that's putting it as generic-ly as possible. Pay attention to who's in control of what you are seeing and how it's being sold to you. I can tell you it's not your peers.
I agree with everything you just said. Don't even get me started on the materialism and putting people on a high level of borderline worship. The media has pushed "forget about what bad might come from your actions, do what feels good". Instead of common sense, what do you get? Flashy stories. No substance.
Why would being good at video games necessarily reflect poorly on one's work ethic?
You think it applies to just plain old TV?
He may of been sarcastic with that comment.
Let me address things as I read them.
This idea that Americans are no longer worker hard. This is fallacious. US productivity is far higher than it was 30 years ago.
Hours are also high as it compares to other countries. Many people take work home with them in addition to their standard work hours.
I continue to see this sense of pushing one's own morals and expectations on to others. And worse I see it being used at some sort of evidence to support claims of degradation in society. That is the definition of confirmation bias.
Here is a response to McLovin's claims on education for instance.
And the dangers of using poorly constructed data. And then continuing to use that to paint a larger picture of an overarching problem.
He continues to talk about the difference between income tax/sales tax of Tennessee where he grew up and california where he lives. Does he specify how much of California's state income tax and sales tax go towards maintenance of roads and infrastructure. Or the reality that it's often things like gas tax that go towards maintaining roads and infrastructure as well as local property taxes.
How does Tennessee rank in terms of education compared to say, my state of Massachusetts?
What ScipioCowboy doesn't understand is that if people are not buying goods and services, how can one get rich? And then how can the economy grow?
He suggests consumers spend more for marginally better products that are significantly more expensive... yet that goes against the very model of market demand.
People buy things in the next bracket? I think you're full of yourself. Apparently people who are lower income quite simply shouldn't have nice things. They should live in shoe boxes and wear potato sacks.
Thanks for the response. Laid up with the flu, so i am going to be brief
No arguments that productivity is up and the US remains a leader. I assume you are looking at GDP PPP (per person employed). What is/has happened is that processes and technology has allowed people to be more productive and as people are laid-off retire, many entities are leaning on other employees to pick up the slack as well as their own job. Working in large companies,I see it first hand first hand. Sometimes, job duties that dont add real value can be eliminated. I just lost 1 worker for me in June that i am not backfilling because another employee was able to automate some work and some duties really weren't value added to justify another headcount. Ive had to implement business intelligent systems and the shear amount of man hours it saved by eliminating multi department daily entry was astounding.
whoa. Ok , I was using a USC study on spending PER PUPIL. This blog is refuting a Bob Scheafer report based (I think) on a OECD report on PER CAPITA. This off the bat is apple to oranges. So I am not sure if you are insinuating I am using confirmation bias, but refuting one report with a blog from refuting another report is interesting.
Here is another study illustrating only investment in primary and secondary PUBLIC education per student
I hope you are not using dailykos.com as an objective source.
That would seem be more of a confirmation bias than a University supported by nces.gov.ed study (maybe).
The issue is that test scores are not keeping up with other parts of the world, Are you denying that? If you are, then I would like to see that study, because that has not popped up in any of my research. Then the question is - is money 100% correlated with scores or are there other issues? If investment is 20% under the top country per pupil, fine. Can we be assured that test scores would jump to top 3? If not, the arguement cant continue to move the goal posts.
likely all studies can have holes poked in them. i do stats for a living and fully understand that just because 2 things are correlated tell you nothing as to whether or not the correlation is statistically significant. For that you need to run multiple regression or principal component analysis. Since most dont have the spare time to collect all data, nor the skill to do that, you have to look for similar themes, big picture and real world example
Love this because it is my pet peeve. California has a 48.6 cent/gal tax (2nd highest) to 21.4 c/g for TN. The extra for california had been earmarked for infrastructure maintenance in Gray Davis and Scwarzeneggar terms. However, that was usurped and now it goes to the general fund to fund the public pension disaster.
i'll give you one article, but you can google search and if you find one that lauds the shape of California surface streets - please forward.
Personal Evidence - I have had two flat tires and 3 alignments in 2 years simply from hitting put holes. That has never happened to me before in my life. This was between Beverly Hills and the 405 and on Ventura Blvd between Calabasas and Encino, not exactly "bad areas"
Property taxes are relative. california actually has a little lower property tax rate rate than TN, but the fact that housing is 3-4x as much more than makes up for it.
What is your point?, are we going to talk scores? I never made a comparison between Tenn and Mass. Are you making the a correlation that school performance is 100% correlated with tax/money spent? If it were that easy, then the problem would be easily solved. There are many other factors that people dont wish to factor in - geographic, socio-economic, demographic, etc.
I am not going to defend Tennessee education. But to ignore that Massachusetts has one of the highest income per pupil in the country - if not the highest - is likely missing a large component. Highly educated and successful households provide advantages and place priorities on children to do well in school.
Didn't really get this, wasn't directed at me so don't feel well enough to decipher
In closing, in case you think I am just some right-wing capitalism shill - you are dead wrong. I have no issue in paying taxes if it is going to provide tangible benefit or maintenance. Not for the wars either.
In fact, though it is a G--D--- tragedy, I will likely vote to increase property taxes to fix the roads here. It is for my good, the greater good, and to eliminate blight
What I can't stand is to be told "this tax will fix it - you'll see." Then 2 years later back to the well to grab more money to fix the problem. It is a institutional scam especially here. They keep increasing utility rates due to repair and modernization and costs, yet for last 5 years, the Utility districts have provided dividends/surplus back to local and state governments as a ruse to close budget shortfalls. If/when the economy picks up, do you think those rates will revert back down? LOL.
of the people I know, I follow my tax dollars fairly closely. Most people don't and incrementally you are giving more and more for less and less - with no ability to change it. If Time Warner screwed you over, you can go to Directv, etc. People have no interest in holding governments accountable. Or they are single issue voters. When the rishest zipcodes are congregated around Washington DC, you know people are making money off of public money and not producing anything of real value.
That was brief? :laugh2: