The Cowboys must be better at evaluating Defensive talent

sbark

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Some of it is on RodM. He had gained a rep in Chicago of finding gems, especially d line. He couldn't repeat it here.

He didn't prioritize 1tech at all, safety either. I think Jerry also had carryover view of LBrs from Jimmy Johnson.
 

Bullflop

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Let's hope Dan Quinn and Will McClay are a good influence on the staff to make better decisions on our defensive help. o_O:thumbup: :rolleyes:

I tend to blame Jerry for his love for offensive picks and ignorance for the defensive ones. Let's face it; McClay has to do what he's told . . .
 
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Whyjerry

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A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.
This is why they will pick Pitts if given the chance. Jerry should just sell the Cowboys are buy an Arena League team.
 

jterrell

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A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.
I see a lot of these takes and reality is they have not spent cap cash nor draft picks on the defense in anything like what they done on the offense.
Byron Jones wasn't a bad pick. He just wasn't signed because he was going to cost a fortune.
Taco was a trash pick sure but we need folks to stop pretending he was pick 15. He was 27th overall sneaking into the bottom of R1 when R1 players had run out on most boards.

Lee was drafted like 20 years ago lol. The fact you have to stretch to add him shows the issue.

Top 50 defensive selections the last 10 years:
2020: -- (Diggs was 51).
2019: --
2018: 19-LVE
2017: 28-Tacomeat
2016: 34- Jaylon
2015: 27- Byron
2014: 34-DLaw
2013: --
2012: 6-Mo
2011: 40-Bruce Carter.

So 7 selections in 10 years in top 50.
Of those 1 player was drafted top 18. You've drafted 4 OFF players with top 18 picks int hat same time frame.
1 top 18 player in 10 years is not really trying very hard to build a defense in my opinion.

Cap OFF: Pay Dak, Zeke, every OL, Coop
Cap DEF: Pay DLaw, TC(gone this year), Jaylon

I mean you are putting all your roster building capital into offense. That's why it is better.
 

buybuydandavis

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A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.

More clearly a problem from 2016-2019

2020 Diggs- 2nd, Gally- 3rd
2019 Hill- 2nd
2018 LVE- 1st, Armstrong-4th
2017 Taco- 1st (cut), Awuzie-2nd, Lewis-3rd
2016 Jaylon- 2nd (top of 2nd), Collins-3rd, Tapper-4th

It's not like we haven't invested picks in defense. They just haven't panned out. But the failure isn't all on the picks, but on the coaching too. LVE, Awuzie, Jaylon, Collins all looked their best when they first started playing, then pooped out.
 

Bobhaze

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Since the Jones boys rarely relinquish any perceived power, it would be very beneficial if they hired a top notch football guru with ZERO ties to the organization to give them some brutally honest roster and individual player feedback to stop the echo chamber loop they seem to live in. They believe their own hype.

I know they listen to input from others but it needs to be people not on their regular payroll and input loop.
 

TwoCentPlain

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One can hate all they want and point to no SBs and few playoff victories in so many years, but the fact of the matter is that the Cowboys have drafted well.

@Aven8 provided a list of defensive players who have been pretty good overall.

The draft is one big piece of the puzzle but there are other pieces needed to make the whole thing go right.

Chiefs were nothing until they drafted Mahommes. Mahommes’ rising tide lifted Hill and Kelce and the whole team up.
 

ondaedg

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I see a lot of these takes and reality is they have not spent cap cash nor draft picks on the defense in anything like what they done on the offense.
Byron Jones wasn't a bad pick. He just wasn't signed because he was going to cost a fortune.
Taco was a trash pick sure but we need folks to stop pretending he was pick 15. He was 27th overall sneaking into the bottom of R1 when R1 players had run out on most boards.

Lee was drafted like 20 years ago lol. The fact you have to stretch to add him shows the issue.

Top 50 defensive selections the last 10 years:
2020: -- (Diggs was 51).
2019: --
2018: 19-LVE
2017: 28-Tacomeat
2016: 34- Jaylon
2015: 27- Byron
2014: 34-DLaw
2013: --
2012: 6-Mo
2011: 40-Bruce Carter.

So 7 selections in 10 years in top 50.
Of those 1 player was drafted top 18. You've drafted 4 OFF players with top 18 picks int hat same time frame.
1 top 18 player in 10 years is not really trying very hard to build a defense in my opinion.

Cap OFF: Pay Dak, Zeke, every OL, Coop
Cap DEF: Pay DLaw, TC(gone this year), Jaylon

I mean you are putting all your roster building capital into offense. That's why it is better.

Doesn't make sense to use some arbitrary number like 50 as the cutoff. Remember there are 32 teams. A more generally accepted number would be 1st or 2nd round picks which changes your list.
 

TwoCentPlain

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Since the Jones boys rarely relinquish any perceived power, it would be very beneficial if they hired a top notch football guru with ZERO ties to the organization to give them some brutally honest roster and individual player feedback to stop the echo chamber loop they seem to live in. They believe their own hype.

I know they listen to input from others but it needs to be people not on their regular payroll and input loop.

Don’t you think Parcells, McCarthy, Phillips, Philbin, Quinn, Marinelli, etc. have done exactly that? Yes, they are on the payroll but have guaranteed contracts and can and do speak their mind. They have skin in the game. Do you think Parcells was some puppet?

Your anti-Jerry, anti-front office agenda wreaks.
 

bewp7

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stop drafting trait and scheme fit and draft good football player

also hire good coaching staff

the problem will magicly go away :p
 

Vintage

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D Law, Hill and Taco were all scheme. You could make the case they were all drafted too high

DLaw was the last of that tier of pass rushers which is why we traded up.

Not sure how you would argue that he was drafted too high.

That pick was a hit.
 

Bobhaze

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Don’t you think Parcells, McCarthy, Phillips, Philbin, Quinn, Marinelli, etc. have done exactly that? Yes, they are on the payroll but have guaranteed contracts and can and do speak their mind. They have skin in the game. Do you think Parcells was some puppet?

Your anti-Jerry, anti-front office agenda wreaks.
My point is about listening to someone not connected to the team. Doesn’t mean you have to take that advice. But if you only listen to people in your circle, you are more likely to have blinds spots.

And I’m not “anti-Jerry”....I’m anti-losing.
 

Redball Express

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A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.
The problem has been the wrong DCs like Rob Ryan and Marinelli. That is Jerrah and Stephen not understanding anything more than offense to sell tickets. Quinn is about football not learning from the Jones about being a millionaire.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.
Taco was projected to go mid 1st.

I would definitely say Maranelli's influence negatively impacted how this defense has been assembled during his tenure here. He was the worst of two evils; one the hand flippant that he didn't need top tier defensive prospects to work with, and then on the other hand when he did champion a prospect his evaluation was bad.
 

jterrell

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Doesn't make sense to use some arbitrary number like 50 as the cutoff. Remember there are 32 teams. A more generally accepted number would be 1st or 2nd round picks which changes your list.
Actually you target getting top X players in a draft.
I value Top 50 guys more than all other draft picks.

R1 is an arbitrary number TBH. Especially since most drafts don't see teams rate 32 guys R1 worthy.

SO I used top 50 here but we can certainly change that number to 55/60/75 whatever warms the cockles of the people with really bad football takes that favor offense all the time.
I am absolutely giddy they used pick 51 on Diggs obviously.

But if you go top 15 they've drafted one DEF player since 2011. Now part of that is they have been pretty good so don't draft top 15 a lot BUT they used the premium picks the last 10 years at CB back in 2012, LT (great use) and RB (I won't comment).
They also used an R1 in trade for a WR. --Was genius because it ended up being pick 27 which as I note isn't really an R1 grade basically ever.

It's OK to balance things out some.

I am fine with leaning OFF with cap dollars.
But if you lean cap and draft and then wonder why when the offense hits a road block you lose perhaps you might want ot examine the roster building tools and methodology.
 

Aerolithe_Lion

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The difference has been on DEF they have drafted based on scheme and that failed. On Offense they drafted best player available and that succeeded.

that is a very interesting point. Didn’t look at it that way but you’re right

Another issue I believe is they tend to go for boom or bust far more often on defense. Think about Jaylon Smith... there was a strong chance you get absolutely nothing out of that selection based on his knee. A second round pick that possibly never sees the field! And Randy Gregory, his problems followed him to the NFL, another second round pick. Also Taco Charlton, his biggest knock on him was he started only 1 year in college and had a poor understanding of blocking schemes... he also often ‘guessed’ at holes to jump and was wrong more than most. This translates into a guy who is raw, someone who is a long term project. Long term projects in the first round is kind of a crazy philosophy (outside of QB). Eagles have done it a few times and it almost always backfired. Then there’s Tristen Hill, everyone knew he was super raw and high risk/ high reward... another second round pick.


Every team gambles with certain picks, but to continuously gamble with such valuable picks is kinda bonkers. And it’s almost exclusively on defense. Many felt Frederick was a reach, but no one doubted he was a solid player with a bright future. Zeke was a sure thing, Lamb was a home run pick, Zach Martin was applauded. And then there was Morris Claiborne, the only CB the last 20(?) years taken in the top 6 who couldn’t run a sub-4.5 40.

It is perplexing
 
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jterrell

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In Summary, you haven't picked top 10 except once in a decade and you went RB.
With that 10th pick Thursday if you don't like a defender perhaps use that capital somehow to favor the defense. Be it a trade down that nets a couple defenders or a trade with a team who has a ready made defender worth the selection.

The NFL is a 3 phases game.

Alabama would beat a team comprised of the KC offense and a HS defense every game. Your weakest areas matter.
Run defense isn't a huge deal until of course you can't stop anybody. Then you will simply not win. So it's gotta be good enough with minimal resources. Poor AWoods and his sad salary.

This offense is built for war. But you gotta have some defense of they sneak in and destroy all the weapons while you sleep.
 

jterrell

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that is a very interesting point. Didn’t look at it that way but you’re right
That applies to one guy, lol.
Drafted 28th overall.

They simply haven't drafted that many guys with high end selections.
They have done better about drafting R2 and R3 DL but those guys are going to have to develop. Day 1 DL go top 15.

They hit on Sean Lee, Jaylon Smith(though contract is scary now), Randy Gregory(though he needed 2 years to develop then 2 more to get free of weed regulations.
Mo was a solid player but they simply never vetted the dude. He fell for a reason. He was injured. An undersized guy that can't lift weights is a tough sell when trading up to pick 6....
LVE was off a lot of teams boards. Dallas loved the athletic profile and character and thus far we've seen the effects of both sides.

If I wanted to "fix" things I'd perhaps draft well-research defenders with high draft resources that are healthy!
They'll get at least 2 chances to add top 50 defenders next week. LEttttsssss Go!!!!
 
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