The Cowboys must be better at evaluating Defensive talent

[Sarge]

They need to put more emphasis on the defensive side of the ball period. Defense, in the end, still wins.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

That applies to one guy, lol.
Drafted 28th overall.

They simply haven't drafted that many guys with high end selections.
They have done better about drafting R2 and R3 DL but those guys are going to have to develop. Day 1 DL go top 15.

They hit on Sean Lee, Jaylon Smith(though contract is scary now), Randy Gregory(though he needed 2 years to develop then 2 more to get free of weed regulations.
Mo was a solid player but they simply never vetted the dude. He fell for a reason. He was injured. An undersized guy that can't lift weights is a tough sell when trading up to pick 6....
LVE was off a lot of teams boards. Dallas loved the athletic profile and character and thus far we've seen the effects of both sides.

If I wanted to "fix" things I'd perhaps draft well-research defenders with high draft resources that are healthy!
They'll get at least 2 chances to add top 50 defenders next week. LEttttsssss Go!!!!

You used a second round pick on Jaylon and Gregory. Up to this point do you believe you’ve gotten second round value out of them? Gregory was drafted 6 drafts ago (surprised me too) and has 10 career sacks. How exactly is that a ‘hit’? Because he’s still held on to a roster spot? Second round picks are first round leftovers. You’re not looking to fill reserve slots with those

 

[Clove]

The problem is, Jerry sees an Injured players and thinks he can rehab that player. Or a troubled player, or players as such, vs, just picking the BP at that position. He's trying to get a big bargain and it's never quite worked out for him. Plus, he tries to get cute. Taco (a virtual no name) to Watt (because he wasn't a 4-3 guy) That's getting cute. Pick the best player.

 

[jnday]

A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.

Some of the worst defensive picks was Marinelli’s hand picked players. Marinelli was outdated and good defensive players was passed over because they didn’t fit his scheme. A good example is his 1-tech type of players which was smaller than the usual 1-tech players in other schemes.

 

[jterrell]

You used a second round pick on Jaylon and Gregory. Up to this point do you believe you’ve gotten second round value out of them? Gregory was drafted 6 drafts ago (surprised me too) and has 10 career sacks. How exactly is that a ‘hit’? Because he’s still held on to a roster spot? Second round picks are first round leftovers. You’re not looking to fill reserve slots with those

Gregory is a tough one. It has taken forever to get those 10.5 sacks
BUT.. he was pick 60 not 35, he has made no money at all so cost you nothing and when suspended he didn't even eat a roster spot.
He's a starter next year which is pretty good return on pick 60 SIX years earlier.

Jaylon is an easy hit given his starts and snap counts but the contract is tough going forward so he may not be here long.

These are obviously not DLaw caliber selections but few are. If Taco is a bust and DLaw is a grand slam, I'd call these a Hit.

I feel the same about CWill on offense. Solid pick 50 value but certainy not a steal or gland slam. Just a hit.

 

[Jake]

A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.

Unfortunately, Jerry doesn't get visions of sugar plums when thinking about defensive players.

 

[Majic]

DLaw was the last of that tier of pass rushers which is why we traded up.

Not sure how you would argue that he was drafted too high.

That pick was a hit.

Because he wasn't projected to go that high, and there is no evidence to suggest he would have been selected there if we hadn't drafted him. It was a good pick

 

[JBond]

The way they get better at drafting Defense is by giving Dan Quinn more influence on defensive decisions and less to Will McClay. McClay is awesome at offensive draft decisions but less so when it comes to defense. Dan Quinn is in a much better position to draft defensive players that fit the scheme he has in mind.

Umm.... isn't that why we had issues? Coaches having to much influence?

 

[CouchCoach]

Agree but how do they do that? Who is evaluating the talent now? Doesn't take much to pick Big Smitty, Martin, Bryant, Lamb, Elliott or even Yosemite, who was the highest ranked Center.

The same people traded up for Claiborne and selected Charleton and Vander Esch.

Don't give defense a second thought but that's what they do. Offense drives ticket sales, merch sales and attention on TV. The stars are all on the offense. Ware was the exception, certainly not the rule. They even push to make OL stars.

This is not going to change.

 

[JoeKing]

Umm.... isn't that why we had issues? Coaches having to much influence?

That's a ridiculous statement. Jimmy Johnson was a coach with considerable influence on the Cowboys draft. Was that a problem for you too? Can we agree it depends on the coach with the influence? Obviously, Marinelli's influence in the draft didn't work out but that doesn't mean we should stop letting the coaches have influence.

 

[TwentyOne]

A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.

We are not good on both sides of the ball. But we are worse on the D side.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Unfortunately, Jerry doesn't get visions of sugar plums when thinking about defensive players.

Mo Claiborne.

 

[BigD_95]

A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.

not sure the point because a lot of those guys are good players. Injuries hurt some of them but you can’t call that missing on picks. Taking .Lee & LVE were solid picks. Taco looks like the awful pick but what team doesn’t have an awful pick? Jury still out on Hill. He looked to be coming on in his 2nd year before getting hurt.

we just invest more in top picks on the offense. It’s easier to hit on top talent when you consistently use top picks.

 

[75boyz]

A list of draft picks thrown at the defense the past couple of years.

Lee- 2nd
Dlaw- 2nd
Greg’s- 2nd
Hill- 2nd
Gally- 3rd
LVE- 1st
Jaylon- 2nd
Byron- 1st (gone in FA)
Diggs- 2nd
Taco- 1st (cut)
Safety- we don’t value this position

My point is it’s not like the FO hasn’t given them late picks on Defense, they have just picked the wrong players. Was that Marinelli’s influence? Of course he had input, but the Scouts and McClay have to be accountable as well. They must do better.

Now look at the offense.
Dak- 4th (got lucky)
Zeke- 1st
Coop- 1st
Gallup- 3rd
Tyron- 1st
Martin- 1st
Tfred- 1st
Connor- 2nd
Collins- UDFA that should have been a high pick.
Lamb- 1st
Schultz and Jar look like good players as well.

Everyone of these players have been successful and have been cornerstones for this team.

The drafting and evaluation has to improve on Defense. Hopefully Quinn helps with this and the evaluations turn around.

Outstanding post. Seems to be overlooked here.
Imo this is truly one of the core problems to this team's lack of success. I read a Cowboys article that 3 regional long time scouts moved on to other teams a couple of years ago so maybe fresh eyes/methods will yield improvement.

But I just don't know.


CowboysFaninHouston did a past similar summation of defensive picks and their general overall career paths and the "majority" did not perform to draft level in most cases and in some/many were outright busts.

There is a fundamental disconnect on the player selected and his coaching/development with how it matches to whoever's the DC at the time. The player and scheme regularly do not match.

It began after Parcells left. Not sure if it's a basic philosophical error or mis communication between those scouting, selecting and coaching.

But something is missing.
And it has been for a long time and I don't think the Joneses know how to fix it either outside of wholesale infrastructure change.

And that ain't happening, lol

My opinion.

AND again, I believe this IS a root cause of the losing.

Because THIS front offense does not know HOW to choose the right defensive players.

 

[Majic]

The problem is, Jerry sees an Injured players and thinks he can rehab that player. Or a troubled player, or players as such, vs, just picking the BP at that position. He's trying to get a big bargain and it's never quite worked out for him. Plus, he tries to get cute. Taco (a virtual no name) to Watt (because he wasn't a 4-3 guy) That's getting cute. Pick the best player.

Exactly what Mike McCarthy has said from day one

 

[JBond]

That's a ridiculous statement. Jimmy Johnson was a coach with considerable influence on the Cowboys draft. Was that a problem for you too? Can we agree it depends on the coach with the influence? Obviously, Marinelli's influence in the draft didn't work out but that doesn't mean we should stop letting the coaches have influence.

It is not ridiculous. It is a completely different situation from the Jimmy days. Heck, it was reported coaches want Horn over Surtain.

 

[kskboys]

The problem is, Jerry sees an Injured players and thinks he can rehab that player. Or a troubled player, or players as such, vs, just picking the BP at that position. He's trying to get a big bargain and it's never quite worked out for him. Plus, he tries to get cute. Taco (a virtual no name) to Watt (because he wasn't a 4-3 guy) That's getting cute. Pick the best player.

Taco was BPA over Watt. Drop the BPA agenda. Taco was a bad pick due to poor player analysis.

 

[kskboys]

Outstanding post. Seems to be overlooked here.
Imo this is truly one of the core problems to this team's lack of success. I read a Cowboys article that 3 regional long time scouts moved on to other teams a couple of years ago so maybe fresh eyes/methods will yield improvement.

But I just don't know.


CowboysFaninHouston did a past similar summation of defensive picks and their general overall career paths and the "majority" did not perform to draft level in most cases and in some/many were outright busts.

There is a fundamental disconnect on the player selected and his coaching/development with how it matches to whoever's the DC at the time. The player and scheme regularly do not match.

It began after Parcells left. Not sure if it's a basic philosophical error or mis communication between those scouting, selecting and coaching.

But something is missing.
And it has been for a long time and I don't think the Joneses know how to fix it either outside of wholesale infrastructure change.

And that ain't happening, lol

My opinion.

AND again, I believe this IS a root cause of the losing.

Because THIS front offense does not know HOW to choose the right defensive players.

Scouts aren't the problem. It's what this org does w/ the info is where the problem lies.

 

[Batman1980]

Scouts aren't the problem. It's what this org does w/ the info is where the problem lies.

I dunno, I can't remember the last time we had a 3rd round pick who panned out.

 

[Fizziksman]

they need to be better at coaching and putting players in positions to succeed