Recap: David Moore on organizational issues on defense

pitt33

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Most of the intelligent fans who have been on this board for a while know ALL of this. Otherwise our D would not stink the place up like it does.
And with that I find it really hard to believe this franchise will ever win a another SB under this front office.

So to your point, most intelligent fans should come to that same realization.
 

jterrell

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Not sure how much of this is actually true.

Dallas made the change from Wade Phillips to Jason Garrett and decided the way to go was old school 4-3 cover 2.
They had that foundational structure in place for over a decade and it just got old fashioned and the league outgrew it.

Even novice Cowboys fans understand this.

Mike McCarthy certainly did. But his best option at DC ended up being a mad scientist type who had to try and work with no practice and a roster used to old school 4-3/4-2-5 basics.
Nolan wanted to reinvent the whole thing on the fly like a Calculus 1 prof that gives out 25 homework problems class 1. It failed.

Dallas is tilted offense for sure because the league is. Rules favor them and you get on TV more. But some orgs like Baltimore/Pitt have traditionally built through defense first.

It's hard to say the DAL model sucks when KC is winning based on offense BUT you could certainly point to BAL/PITT as teams who stay ultra competitive by going defense first.

For me end of day I'd like to see you consistently upgrade your weakest areas while also seeking outliers.
Dallas loves outliers but COMPLETELY ignores their weaknesses.
 

pitt33

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So yeah, I will not be excited about this draft class. They are frauds until proven otherwise due to the history
My exact sentiments.

I haven’t felt this uninspired about a draft in years.

Pittsburgh and Baltimore have a proven track record when it comes to a drafting blueprint.
 

CyberB0b

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Not sure how much of this is actually true.

Dallas made the change from Wade Phillips to Jason Garrett and decided the way to go was old school 4-3 cover 2.
They had that foundational structure in place for over a decade and it just got old fashioned and the league outgrew it.

Even novice Cowboys fans understand this.

Mike McCarthy certainly did. But his best option at DC ended up being a mad scientist type who had to try and work with no practice and a roster used to old school 4-3/4-2-5 basics.
Nolan wanted to reinvent the whole thing on the fly like a Calculus 1 prof that gives out 25 homework problems class 1. It failed.

Dallas is tilted offense for sure because the league is. Rules favor them and you get on TV more. But some orgs like Baltimore/Pitt have traditionally built through defense first.

It's hard to say the DAL model sucks when KC is winning based on offense BUT you could certainly point to BAL/PITT as teams who stay ultra competitive by going defense first.

For me end of day I'd like to see you consistently upgrade your weakest areas while also seeking outliers.
Dallas loves outliers but COMPLETELY ignores their weaknesses.

The problem is the mad scientist he hired has a long history of being a bum DC.
 

kskboys

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I also think drafting players only to make them switch positions is a bad idea.
It really depends on the situation. Many many OT's are switched to OG, many CB's are switched to S, some LB's and DT's are switched.

And many DB's have played both CB and S.

The problem is our org, not the position switchie thingie.
 

plymkr

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Goes back to the lack of organizational identity........... I know what a Patriot player looks like.....Steeler player....... Baltimore.......KC....... We know the traits those teams look for......no idea what a Dallas Cowboy looks like. It changes every year.
It changes every year because we don't have an identity.
 

Bobhaze

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Goes back to the lack of organizational identity........... I know what a Patriot player looks like.....Steeler player....... Baltimore.......KC....... We know the traits those teams look for......no idea what a Dallas Cowboy looks like. It changes every year.
The only way we can define a Cowboys player since ‘95- they are the guys watching the NFC championship and Super Bowl games at home.
 

TheDude

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I don’t know what we got at hc right now but I’d like to believe that Coach Garrett was out there teaching technique all the way down to the basics on the defensive side of the ball. So this talk about him being a offensive oriented coach is a giant crock. Because when I look back all I saw was a leader of men and the giant mistake it was to let him out the door.
Is this sarcasm?
 

TheDude

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I don’t know what we got at hc right now but I’d like to believe that Coach Garrett was out there teaching technique all the way down to the basics on the defensive side of the ball. So this talk about him being a offensive oriented coach is a giant crock. Because when I look back all I saw was a leader of men and the giant mistake it was to let him out the door.
Interesting as I always heard it was his administrative and walk around skills that added value.

Hence, why play calling was removed and they needed Ryan (2012 draft), kitten, Marinelli, Nolan, Quinn to come on and fix the defense while the off coordinator went from Linehan to a kid that hasn't even hit the age to get the best car insurance rate
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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David Moore w/ Norm Hitzges on The Ticket today -
  • There's a lack of defensive "expertise" in the front office and scouting department
  • Ownership/franchise culture is offensive-centric. (Cowboys have not resigned a 1st rd pick on defense since Demarcus Ware)
  • Scouts lean towards offensive players to satisfy the owner
  • The last two Cowboys head coaches were offensive-minded
  • This dynamic leads to a situation where the franchise leans on the defensive coordinator excessively regarding personnel decisions
  • They always view the next defensive coordinator as their "savior". Meanwhile, in Baltimore, a new DC is expected to contribute to established defensive culture.
  • When the DC is fired or goes elsewhere (Norm mentioned Quinn leaving for another HC job if he turns this thing around), the franchise has to start from scratch because there's no foundational defensive system in place here in Dallas
  • Mentioned how now they're throwing numbers at the problem in hopes that competition will fix the problem (no real plan)
I have been saying this for several months now...we are focused on offense, because offense translates to sales, jersey sales, etc....nobody wants a FS or a DT jersey, but WR, QB, TE, RB jersey's sell..

we have had 15 years, 43+ picks and one impact defensive player........yeah, I would say defensive scouting is bad..
 

fansince68

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If the Falcons had passed on Pitts, we could have traded with them and given up a lot of these picks that were wasted anyway during the draft.
 

Kwyn

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I have been saying this for several months now...we are focused on offense, because offense translates to sales, jersey sales, etc....nobody wants a FS or a DT jersey, but WR, QB, TE, RB jersey's sell..

we have had 15 years, 43+ picks and one impact defensive player........yeah, I would say defensive scouting is bad..
To be fair, the Cowboys have always been about glitz and glamour and even the Doomsday teams were first and foremost a flashy offensive team.

Lifelong Cowboy die hard and I’ve never seen the franchise’s identity as defense first.

I’m sure that some Bears and Ravens fans cry about their team doubling and tripling down on their “identity” as being “lunch pail” and “blue collar”. Hell, the entire AFC Central/North has had that “identity” since the Steelers and Browns joined. It probably always will.

Some teams just are what they are. It doesn’t have to be some grand conspiracy
 

Kwyn

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If the Falcons had passed on Pitts, we could have traded with them and given up a lot of these picks that were wasted anyway during the draft.
Number four is franchise QB territory.

Trading up would have cost #10, #44 and #75

More likely you’d be looking at #10, #44 and next years 1st.

You can’t offer a bag of beans for the #4 overall pick and expect to be taken seriously
 

CWR

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Excellent summary of a structural flaw the Jones cartel not only doesn’t recognize, it probably wouldn’t care if it did anyway.

One only has to look at this team’s defensive history since winning its last SB in 1995 to see this foundational flaw. Since we hoisted the Lombardi in SB XXX, this team has hired 8 defensive coordinators, including 4 DCs in 9 years: Dave Campo, Mike Zimmer, Brian Stewart, Rob Ryan, Monte Kiffin, Rod Marinelli, Mike Nolan, and now Dan Quinn.

And this team has changed schemes far too often- From the 90s 4-3 to the 3-4 under Parcells and Phillips, then back to the 4-3, then the “hybrid” 4-3 (4-2-5?) under Nolan, and now back to the 4-3 under Quinn. This team changes defensive philosophies like underwear. It’s hard to build a defense when you don’t even know what kind of defense you are trying to be.

From the 90s is going back 30 years. Yes it's not good to have a lack of continuance, but we had exactly that with Garrett and Marinelli for what seemed like forever.

It's hard for me to argue against change at this point.

Again the OP is paraphrasing an opinion piece here, based on speculation. I'm sure some of it is correct, but again it's his take and nothing more.
Not sure how much of this is actually true.

Dallas made the change from Wade Phillips to Jason Garrett and decided the way to go was old school 4-3 cover 2.
They had that foundational structure in place for over a decade and it just got old fashioned and the league outgrew it.

Even novice Cowboys fans understand this.

Mike McCarthy certainly did. But his best option at DC ended up being a mad scientist type who had to try and work with no practice and a roster used to old school 4-3/4-2-5 basics.
Nolan wanted to reinvent the whole thing on the fly like a Calculus 1 prof that gives out 25 homework problems class 1. It failed.

Dallas is tilted offense for sure because the league is. Rules favor them and you get on TV more. But some orgs like Baltimore/Pitt have traditionally built through defense first.

It's hard to say the DAL model sucks when KC is winning based on offense BUT you could certainly point to BAL/PITT as teams who stay ultra competitive by going defense first.

For me end of day I'd like to see you consistently upgrade your weakest areas while also seeking outliers.
Dallas loves outliers but COMPLETELY ignores their weaknesses.

That's was my favorite thing about this draft. While not everyone likes the players selected, Dallas made a legitimate effort to improve the defense. I would've liked a free safety but we went in with a lot of areas needing to be upgraded. Hopefully Kazee returns to form. He will be a big upgrade from our prior FS play.
 

fansince68

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Realistically, I do wish they had traded some picks to move up and get Barmore and or Moherig. I think when both the top CB went off the board they were shell shocked and didn't know what to do. Mayock even said that they traded to get ahead of us to get the safety. Out classed again in the draft.
 

jterrell

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The problem is the mad scientist he hired has a long history of being a bum DC.
I do think when the coaching staff was announced we all said gross to Nolan but you only have access to X amount of guys to be DC so this 1 year toss away DC worked out well IMHO. We got a guy who was a Head Coach and had been the most successful of the Seattle tree DCs.
 

Miller

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David Moore w/ Norm Hitzges on The Ticket today -
  • There's a lack of defensive "expertise" in the front office and scouting department
  • Ownership/franchise culture is offensive-centric. (Cowboys have not resigned a 1st rd pick on defense since Demarcus Ware)
  • Scouts lean towards offensive players to satisfy the owner
  • The last two Cowboys head coaches were offensive-minded
  • This dynamic leads to a situation where the franchise leans on the defensive coordinator excessively regarding personnel decisions
  • They always view the next defensive coordinator as their "savior". Meanwhile, in Baltimore, a new DC is expected to contribute to established defensive culture.
  • When the DC is fired or goes elsewhere (Norm mentioned Quinn leaving for another HC job if he turns this thing around), the franchise has to start from scratch because there's no foundational defensive system in place here in Dallas
  • Mentioned how now they're throwing numbers at the problem in hopes that competition will fix the problem (no real plan)

Thanks for this recap. They nailed it
 
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