The hybrid 4-3 we will be playing

dwmyers

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There are a lot of folks, still, who think we will be running a 3-4. There are a lot of folks, still, who think we're rid of the Tampa 43 that Marinelli used.

Simply put, the front that Seattle began to use in 2010 is the same front that Monte Kiffin used on Tony Dungy's Tampa 2, just on steriods.

Compared to the old Tampa 2 front, rather than having a DE, 3T, 1T and DE, you have a Leo, a 3T, a 1T and a big end. Or maybe you have a big end, a 3T, a 1T and a big end. Or maybe you have a Leo, a 3T, a 1T, and a 1 gapping big end.

It's not uncommon for the DC to switch out player roles on a game to game basis.

So what's a big end and what's a Leo? Big end is the end on the strong side of the formation. Leo is on the weak side. According to SI, an ideal two gapping big end is 280-295 pounds, 20 pounds lighter than a 3-4 DE. Leos can be regular 43 DEs, but because they are weak side, successful Leos can be lighter. And they can be hands in the dirt or 2 point stance, according to what they prefer.

The base therefore is a 4-3 under where 1/2 of the defense is using 3-4 techniques and the other half (the weak side half) is using 4-3 techniques.

But on a game to game basis, it doesn't have to be that.

In 2010, when they came up with this, they had to deal with Seattle's then horrible run defense. And it worked out of the box. If you want specific links, I can DM you my wikipedia draft..

D-
 

817Gill

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There are a lot of folks, still, who think we will be running a 3-4. There are a lot of folks, still, who think we're rid of the Tampa 43 that Marinelli used.

Simply put, the front that Seattle began to use in 2010 is the same front that Monte Kiffin used on Tony Dungy's Tampa 2, just on steriods.

Compared to the old Tampa 2 front, rather than having a DE, 3T, 1T and DE, you have a Leo, a 3T, a 1T and a big end. Or maybe you have a big end, a 3T, a 1T and a big end. Or maybe you have a Leo, a 3T, a 1T, and a 1 gapping big end.

It's not uncommon for the DC to switch out player roles on a game to game basis.

So what's a big end and what's a Leo? Big end is the end on the strong side of the formation. Leo is on the weak side. According to SI, an ideal two gapping big end is 280-295 pounds, 20 pounds lighter than a 3-4 DE. Leos can be regular 43 DEs, but because they are weak side, successful Leos can be lighter. And they can be hands in the dirt or 2 point stance, according to what they prefer.

The base therefore is a 4-3 under where 1/2 of the defense is using 3-4 techniques and the other half (the weak side half) is using 4-3 techniques.

But on a game to game basis, it doesn't have to be that.

In 2010, when they came up with this, they had to deal with Seattle's then horrible run defense. And it worked out of the box. If you want specific links, I can DM you my wikipedia draft..

D-
This has been the most accurate assessment of what we will see schematically. Kudos to you sir.
 

JBS

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Great post. Who starts at those positions? What about the linebackers? Who plays there as well? Obviously, these are projections but what's your best guess
 

dwmyers

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Great post. Who starts at those positions? What about the linebackers? Who plays there as well? Obviously, these are projections but what's your best guess

Fundamentally, linebackers are the same in this defense and a Tampa 2. Fundamentally, the defensive backfield will go back to the Cover 3 we were playing in 2018-2019.

Now, depending on how many 1 gappers you have on the line, some of the run assignments flow back to the linebackers, but in base the LBs have no obligatory run fits.

This defense does require a MLB that can go sideline to sideline, but that was as true in 1956 as it is now. That's a 4-3 thing.

On Jerry Campbell Football, there is a copy of Pete Carroll's Nike talk, which goes through all the line assignments of a 1 gap 4-3 under. So the linebackers will have to learn their "1 gap" assignments,
just in case.

Starters -- will be hard to guess 100% now. I expect DQ to try things till he finds what works.

My guesses.. Osa is well suited to 2 gap big end. Voch claims he could 1 tech if they needed him. He does not have enough pass rush to be a great 3T for now. If he learns, great!

Gholston is too small for 2 gap DE but he is a great run stopping LEO.

Urban at big end or nose tackle? Kind of the board argument of the moment.

DeMarcus is a perfect 1 gap big end. Gregory can certainly play Leo.

Gallimore at 3T, Hill as backup.

I haven't looked at Watkins and his skill set.
 

Future

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There are a lot of folks who think it's going to be a 3-4 because that's what Quinn said.

I dont really understand the obsession the board has with this. Nickel is base, and the "base" is going to look more like a 3-4. There is no mystery to unpack, and the difference between 3-4 and 4-3, given the limited snaps, is irrelevant.
 

AsthmaField

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Great post. Who starts at those positions? What about the linebackers? Who plays there as well? Obviously, these are projections but what's your best guess
Here you can see the 2-gap 4T and 1T with the 1-gap 3T and LEO (DE).

4-3_Under.JPG


The 4T could be Urban
The 1T could be Bohannon (I hope) or Watkins
The 3T could be Odighizuwa or Gallimore
The LEO could be Gregory, maybe Lawrence, and possibly Parsons some.

You can see that the SLB will sometimes drop in coverage but will also sometimes go after the QB. Quinn and McCarthy have both mentioned Parsons playing there and sending him after the QB. That would be ideal IMO because I think that he is a natural rusher. They could send 5 at the QB with Parsons and Gregory coming off the edge’s. That could be potent if you can just get some decent coverage.

On certain passing downs, you could have this:

Bear_Front.JPG


Here you could have:

SLB Parsons
3T Odighizuwa
0 (NG) Bohannon
3T Gallimore
LEO Gregory

That could be very good at getting to the passer. Parsons could go or he could drop, creating indecision much like a 34 can with its OLB’s.

Bottom line is that it is called multiple for a reason. There is a lot that Quinn can do and many different lineups of defensive personnel.’

What people need to understand is that the guys Quinn has been bringing in are versatile and could be used in different positions depending on down/distance.

People should be very excited about watching this defense IMO.
 

dwmyers

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There are a lot of folks who think it's going to be a 3-4 because that's what Quinn said.

I dont really understand the obsession the board has with this. Nickel is base, and the "base" is going to look more like a 3-4. There is no mystery to unpack, and the difference between 3-4 and 4-3, given the limited snaps, is irrelevant.

It's a little more sophisticated than that. Because the roles are more specific, a larger range of players are available to fill them. 3-4 DL need a lot of size. 4-3 DEs that can stop the run and rush the passer are as rare as unicorns. In a world where everyone else is a 4-3 and 3-4, this defense can take advantage of market inefficiencies and find players unusable by other systems.

D-

Also, that's not what Quinn said. From Mark Lane..

WHAT'S YOUR BASE DEFENSE? -- "I would say it's kind of a mixture because so much of the defense nowadays is played out of a nickel front. So, that's more of a four-down of what you play. As far as in the base packages go, it will look more like a 3-4 look, and that would have been consistent whether it was the team last year or my times with Atlanta as well.
 

AsthmaField

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There are a lot of folks who think it's going to be a 3-4 because that's what Quinn said.

I dont really understand the obsession the board has with this. Nickel is base, and the "base" is going to look more like a 3-4. There is no mystery to unpack, and the difference between 3-4 and 4-3, given the limited snaps, is irrelevant.
Technically, Quinn said it is “going to look like a 34”. He phrased it that way because it isn’t really a 34, IMO.
 

Stash

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Here’s a nice summary, most of which was lifted from a piece done on Gus Bradley’s defensive preferences when he got the Jacksonville job:

https://www.___GET_REAL_URL___/s/ww...-demarcus-lawrence-randy-gregory-jaylon-smith
 

AsthmaField

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Here’s a nice summary, most of which was lifted from a piece done on Gus Bradley’s defensive preferences when he got the Jacksonville job:

https://www.___GET_REAL_URL___/s/ww...-demarcus-lawrence-randy-gregory-jaylon-smith
Yeah, they took a lot from that Jacksonville article.

Still explains it pretty well though.
 

Future

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It's a little more sophisticated than that. Because the roles are more specific, a larger range of players are available to fill them. 3-4 DL need a lot of size. 4-3 DEs that can stop the run and rush the passer are as rare as unicorns. In a world where everyone else is a 4-3 and 3-4, this defense can take advantage of market inefficiencies and find players unusable by other systems.

D-

Also, that's not what Quinn said. From Mark Lane..
You're overthinking it. Market inefficiencies aren't exploited by a defense you run 15 snaps a game
 

75boyz

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The difference in any defense is talent and how it's coached.

Yep. I agree. From the most general of perspectives, I don't see this defensive group as having a high enough collective football IQ to grasp the different assignments and roles that this scheme seems to imply. Same as last year imo. The ability to teach it onhands during TC to the defense does not convince me either.

In my opinion they need to play fast, instinctual, downhill, swarming, gang tackle football and not hafta think.

Didn't Parsons say he was a find ball - get ball type a guy?

Just do the KISS thing with this group Quinn. Keep it Simple Stupid.

Find what each players strength is and have him be good at doing that one thing. It's the prob with this team as a whole. They prefer a player to be position flex average at multiple roles/positions rather than focusing on the one thing/role/position that a player truly excels at.

Ya know kinda like player over scheme.
Or putting a player in his best position to succeed.

Seems like I read those somewhere, lol

jmo
 

Future

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Technically, Quinn said it is “going to look like a 34”. He phrased it that way because it isn’t really a 34, IMO.
It's a 5-front with varying gap assignments. It doesn't matter if you call it a 3-4, 4-3 over or under, or a 5-2.

But it's silly to say it's a 4-3 when the guy running it says it's a 3-4 lol
 

AsthmaField

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It's a 5-front with varying gap assignments. It doesn't matter if you call it a 3-4, 4-3 over or under, or a 5-2.

But it's silly to say it's a 4-3 when the guy running it says it's a 3-4 lol
I don’t disagree. That’s probably why coaches aren’t ever thrilled to label it as a 34 or 43 these days.
 

calicowboy54

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There are a lot of folks, still, who think we will be running a 3-4. There are a lot of folks, still, who think we're rid of the Tampa 43 that Marinelli used.

Simply put, the front that Seattle began to use in 2010 is the same front that Monte Kiffin used on Tony Dungy's Tampa 2, just on steriods.

Compared to the old Tampa 2 front, rather than having a DE, 3T, 1T and DE, you have a Leo, a 3T, a 1T and a big end. Or maybe you have a big end, a 3T, a 1T and a big end. Or maybe you have a Leo, a 3T, a 1T, and a 1 gapping big end.

It's not uncommon for the DC to switch out player roles on a game to game basis.

So what's a big end and what's a Leo? Big end is the end on the strong side of the formation. Leo is on the weak side. According to SI, an ideal two gapping big end is 280-295 pounds, 20 pounds lighter than a 3-4 DE. Leos can be regular 43 DEs, but because they are weak side, successful Leos can be lighter. And they can be hands in the dirt or 2 point stance, according to what they prefer.

The base therefore is a 4-3 under where 1/2 of the defense is using 3-4 techniques and the other half (the weak side half) is using 4-3 techniques.

But on a game to game basis, it doesn't have to be that.

In 2010, when they came up with this, they had to deal with Seattle's then horrible run defense. And it worked out of the box. If you want specific links, I can DM you my wikipedia draft..

D-


What i would like them to do based on what Quinn and Other players say is run a 3-4 like so

run down:
DL:
LDE URBAN / Watson
0/1T Bohanna / Galimore
RDE DLAW / Golston
LB:
DPR Parsons
SMLB LVE
WMLB Smith
LEO Gregory

Passing downs
DL:
LDE DLAW
LDT Hill
RDT Odighizuwa
RDE Gregory
LB:
LB1 COX
LB2 Neal
 

JBS

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Here you can see the 2-gap 4T and 1T with the 1-gap 3T and LEO (DE).

4-3_Under.JPG


The 4T could be Urban
The 1T could be Bohannon (I hope) or Watkins
The 3T could be Odighizuwa or Gallimore
The LEO could be Gregory, maybe Lawrence, and possibly Parsons some.

You can see that the SLB will sometimes drop in coverage but will also sometimes go after the QB. Quinn and McCarthy have both mentioned Parsons playing there and sending him after the QB. That would be ideal IMO because I think that he is a natural rusher. They could send 5 at the QB with Parsons and Gregory coming off the edge’s. That could be potent if you can just get some decent coverage.

On certain passing downs, you could have this:

Bear_Front.JPG


Here you could have:

SLB Parsons
3T Odighizuwa
0 (NG) Bohannon
3T Gallimore
LEO Gregory

That could be very good at getting to the passer. Parsons could go or he could drop, creating indecision much like a 34 can with its OLB’s.

Bottom line is that it is called multiple for a reason. There is a lot that Quinn can do and many different lineups of defensive personnel.’

What people need to understand is that the guys Quinn has been bringing in are versatile and could be used in different positions depending on down/distance.

People should be very excited about watching this defense IMO.

I don't think you will see Parsons at Sam. Parsons himself said he's going to be playing Mike / Will. Also if Parsons is playing Sam, that means he's coming off the field in passing situations. If you are teaching him all 3 lb positions in year 1, that's probably a bit overboard for any rookie. I'm guessing Jaylon will play Sam
 

AsthmaField

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I don't think you will see Parsons at Sam. Parsons himself said he's going to be playing Mike / Will. Also if Parsons is playing Sam, that means he's coming off the field in passing situations. If you are teaching him all 3 lb positions in year 1, that's probably a bit overboard for any rookie. I'm guessing Jaylon will play Sam
I was thinking they put him there only for those pass rush chances,,or leave him there but you may be correct.

I know McCarthy and Quinn have specifically mentioned the SAM/LEO when talking of getting Parsons pass rush opportunities.

In any event, that is the type of thing that can be done differently with the personnel that Dallas has.
 
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