Another Elite RB Goes Home Ringless

[TheMarathonContinues]

Yes sir.

One position has a way larger impact on results of the game and it just so happens that player would have been on our weaker side of the ball. And it's not just a rookie corner it was a pro bowl level rookie corner. Anybody could have ran behind that line with Dak, not any corner could cover like Ramsey given how bad our dline was in 2016.

Running backs statistically make almost no difference in the result of games, while CBs make one of the largest differences.

96% of outcomes from rush attempts can be explained by field position and number of men in the box. 96%!!!! Now is Zeke likely part of that 4% of Carrie's that exceed the expected yards gained? I 100% believe he is since he's a damn good player. But the 1/25 carries just doesnt change the outcome almost at all

Zeke didn’t make a difference in the result of games? Only 1 out of 25 carries? Am I understanding you?

 

[kskboys]

What is this "stellar" crap? Are you confusing his stats with someone else? He had a good year, there was nothing "stellar" about him. Drop it.

Stats? You rate players using only stats? Seriously?

Now I know why you want me to drop it. Because you've lost the argument quite decisively.

 

[Pape]

This gets lost in the sauce. Or that he shared carries with Chubb in Georgia.
I think had he not missed all of the off season due to an injury, he would have been in the spotlight more. In my opinion he's the best RB the Pats have had since Maroney.

Laurence Maroney was terrible. He was so bad the Pats had to bring in Fragile Fred to spell him... he was always hurt ... huge disappointment

 

[Flamma]

....and the team that has a new RB for every Super Bowl they get to gets their sixth trophy since 2000.

You either have a great QB that can put up a ton of points or you have a great defense to keep you in a game. It is not about the skill players, it's about the most valuable position and the trenches.

Stop handing out big contracts to highlight reel players that won't lead you to the ultimate goal. Slap Zeke with a couple franchise tags, hope and pray that Cooper takes some "Thank you for believing in me!" discount, and pay our freakin' defensive players.

This is nothing new. Ever since I've been watching football since the 70s great running backs never translated into championships. They help, but they're not the reason and never have been with the lone exception being the 90s Cowboys.

 

[Pape]

And those DT pressured the QB all night long and kept them to 13 points. You know, the same way the Patriots D pressure the QB.

Which one of them had an RB going off yesterday? You didn't counter my point. I can rattle off a ton of elite defensive player names that have won Super Bowls the past 15 years. Name me the elite RBs.

I'll wait.

elite running backs? guess it really depends on how you define what an elite running vs a very good/good running back... problem with that type of argument, least from my perspective is that you can keep moving the goal posts until your point is proven... for me there have been a few i can think of off the top of my head ... In New England this year, I would say Michel is elite compared to other running backs the Pats have had in the past... ymmv though... to me, he brought a different dynamic to the team after he finally got his feet under him... he was injured most of the offseason, he he had to play catch up for most of the year... but he contributed in a big way down the stretch ... The Pats don't win the AFCCG with out him... that first half was the spot on definition of a ball control offense...

but other elite running backs who helped win in the past 15 super bowls?
marshawn lynch, 2013
ray rice, 2012
jerome bettis, 2005
Corey Dillon, 2004

was bettis an elite runner at the time of sb xl? probably not but willie parker certainly picked up the slack that year...

 

[mattjames2010]

Stats? You rate players using only stats? Seriously?

Now I know why you want me to drop it. Because you've lost the argument quite decisively.

Provide a stat that states he is "stellar". Here's an in-depth stat

https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/sony-michel/27589

#18 on the year. Good, but nothing "stellar".

 

[mattjames2010]

elite running backs? guess it really depends on how you define what an elite running vs a very good/good running back... problem with that type of argument, least from my perspective is that you can keep moving the goal posts until your point is proven... for me there have been a few i can think of off the top of my head ... In New England this year, I would say Michel is elite compared to other running backs the Pats have had in the past... ymmv though... to me, he brought a different dynamic to the team after he finally got his feet under him... he was injured most of the offseason, he he had to play catch up for most of the year... but he contributed in a big way down the stretch ... The Pats don't win the AFCCG with out him... that first half was the spot on definition of a ball control offense...

but other elite running backs who helped win in the past 15 super bowls?
marshawn lynch, 2013
ray rice, 2012
jerome bettis, 2005
Corey Dillon, 2004

was bettis an elite runner at the time of sb xl? probably not but willie parker certainly picked up the slack that year...

Let's break this down, this was already addressed but we'll do it again

Marshawn Lynch - In the biggest game of his career, he put up 39 yards despite the team getting 43 points. He had some good playoff games, but on the biggest stage, it was his defense that was needed the most

Ray Rice - 2012, he was not elite and he was never an elite player. He was a really good back taken in the second round

Jerome Bettis was a shell of his former self in 2005 - and you mentioning a split back system already adds to my point

Corey Dillon was a very good player, some great seasons, but wasn't elite. And the Pats already had 2 Super Bowls without him.

 

[Pape]

Let's break this down, this was already addressed but we'll do it again

Marshawn Lynch - In the biggest game of his career, he put up 39 yards despite the team getting 43 points. He had some good playoff games, but on the biggest stage, it was his defense that was needed the most

Ray Rice - 2012, he was not elite and he was never an elite player. He was a really good back taken in the second round

Jerome Bettis was a shell of his former self in 2005 - and you mentioning a split back system already adds to my point

Corey Dillon was a very good player, some great seasons, but wasn't elite. And the Pats already had 2 Super Bowls without him.

Marshawn Lynch wasn't an elite running back? really?
Corey Dillon wasn't? come on man, he ran for over 1600 yards that year...
Ray Rice was on a 4 year 1100+ yard per season stretch ...

see, this is what I mean by moving the goal posts. Its impossible to meet a criteria that only YOU have/can define.

Emmit Smith? was he elite? cuz in XXX he only put up 49 yards rushing/3 yds receiving...
Jim Brown? I can list multiple games where he was held under 40 yards rushing...
eric dickerson? well he cant be elite, he only rushed for 16 yards in one playoff game...

so then - Step Up - who are the elite running backs? How do you define that? Let me know so I can pick apart any one you put out there..

 

[mattjames2010]

Marshawn Lynch wasn't an elite running back? really?
Corey Dillon wasn't? come on man, he ran for over 1600 yards that year...
Ray Rice was on a 4 year 1100+ yard per season stretch ...

see, this is what I mean by moving the goal posts. Its impossible to meet a criteria that only YOU have/can define.

Emmit Smith? was he elite? cuz in XXX he only put up 49 yards rushing/3 yds receiving...
Jim Brown? I can list multiple games where he was held under 40 yards rushing...
eric dickerson? well he cant be elite, he only rushed for 16 yards in one playoff game...

so then - Step Up - who are the elite running backs? How do you define that? Let me know so I can pick apart any one you put out there..

I didn't say Marshawn Lynch wasn't an elite RB - though, I do find him to be overrated, I stated for an "elite RB" - they didn't need him for their Super Bowl win. Yet, the Super Bowl he got over 100 yards, they took the L.

How is a 4 "1,100" yard season stretch "elite"? You're really lowering the bar for what is "elite" - again, he was a great player, but he was never at the top.

You asked who was an "elite RB" - this has a specific meaning - Dillon was not elite, having "great years" does not equate to elite. We are talking about the NEED for an elite RB to win a Super Bowl.

And what is difficult to get about this? You have to go back decades to make arguments. Smith, Brown, and Dickerson? Yeah, they played in eras where rushing was far more important. Try to keep up. I'm not repeating myself a million times.

In the 2010s, The only RB that we know was elite was Adrian Peterson. That's it.

 

[Pape]

I didn't say Marshawn Lynch wasn't an elite RB - though, I do find him to be overrated, I stated for an "elite RB" - they didn't need him for their Super Bowl win. Yet, the Super Bowl he got over 100 yards, they took the L.

How is a 4 "1,100" yard season stretch "elite"? You're really lowering the bar for what is "elite" - again, he was a great player, but he was never at the top.

You asked who was an "elite RB" - this has a specific meaning - Dillon was not elite, having "great years" does not equate to elite. We are talking about the NEED for an elite RB to win a Super Bowl.

And what is difficult to get about this? You have to go back decades to make arguments. Smith, Brown, and Dickerson? Yeah, they played in eras where rushing was far more important. Try to keep up. I'm not repeating myself a million times.

In the 2010s, The only RB that we know was elite was Adrian Peterson. That's it.

elite ... this is problem i have with what you are trying to argue... players can play at an elite level for a short or for an extended period and yet not be considered an "elite" player. Was Chris Johnson an elite runner the year he earned the nickname CJ2K? Yes. Is he described as an elite player in the annals of football history? No. How about demarco murray? Yes when he hit 1800+ yards, no for a career.

Ray Rice went from 800 yfs in his rookie season to 2000 +/- yards from scrimmage in second year... he changed the way the ravens played... they ran their offense thru him for those four years... and surprise they won a Super Bowl... with Joe Flacco... Thats how ray rice was an elite player during that period... any by the way... adrian peterson only had one season in his storied career where he gained more then 2000 yards from scrimmage ... Ray Rice? Two, in a much shorter career...

So I dont know what to tell you Matt ... we have a fundamental disagreement as to what constitutes "elite" ...

 

[atlantacowboy]

Yeah, use your money and draft picks to grab defensive players that can play. You don't let them walk for positions you know have no correlation to winning a super bowl. The formula we are working with is outdated.

There is no "formula". There are many paths to the super bowl. While the Rams run attack was stuffed by everyone but us in the playoffs, you cannot argue that the run attack is not what got the Rams to the playoffs. It sure as heck wasn't Goff.

 

[mattjames2010]

There is no "formula". There are many paths to the super bowl. While the Rams run attack was stuffed by everyone but us in the playoffs, you cannot argue that the run attack is not what got the Rams to the playoffs. It sure as heck wasn't Goff.

And yet, on the biggest stage when they faced a better STOUT defense, their RBs didn't do crap. The better defense won.

Pretending trends/patterns of the past 15 years mean nothing is ridiculous. You want to keep our team a losing one. Again, another Jerry Jr.

 

[atlantacowboy]

And yet, on the biggest stage when they faced a better STOUT defense, their RBs didn't do crap. The better defense won.

Pretending trends/patterns of the past 15 years mean nothing is ridiculous. You want to keep our team a losing one. Again, another Jerry Jr.

Best defenses in the NFL this past year were Baltimore and Buffalo. It takes a balance to win.

 

[mattjames2010]

Best defenses in the NFL this past year were Baltimore and Buffalo. It takes a balance to win.

No crap you need a good offense - I'm not against a running game. It would be great if some of you hopping into the discussion actually read the title. This is about ELITE RBs not winning Super Bowls. Again, you want to explain the trend, chief?

Show me the amount of times you can lose your elite QB and win it all. Show me the amount of times you lose your elite corner and defensive player and you reproduce their production with ease - Anderson stepped in and gave similar production to Gurley for 4 weeks. You aren't replacing a top 5 DE that easily. You aren't replacing a top 5 corner/safety that easy.

Again, until you can rattle off the list of the past 15 years and somehow manage, without reaching, that there is a long list of elite RBs and WRs, you have nothing and you're attempting to derail the very topic we are discussing. The Pats fanboy forum dweller already attempted this - the MOST you have is Lynch in the past 15 years - and even then, they could have sat Lynch out for that Super Bowl and got the same production.

 

[atlantacowboy]

No crap you need a good offense - I'm not against a running game. It would be great if some of you hopping into the discussion actually read the title. This is about ELITE RBs not winning Super Bowls. Again, you want to explain the trend, chief?

Show me the amount of times you can lose your elite QB and win it all. Show me the amount of times you lose your elite corner and defensive player and you reproduce their production with ease - Anderson stepped in and gave similar production to Gurley for 4 weeks. You aren't replacing a top 5 DE that easily. You aren't replacing a top 5 corner/safety that easy.

Again, until you can rattle off the list of the past 15 years and somehow manage, without reaching, that there is a long list of elite RBs and WRs, you have nothing and you're attempting to derail the very topic we are discussing. The Pats fanboy forum dweller already attempted this - the MOST you have is Lynch in the past 15 years - and even then, they could have sat Lynch out for that Super Bowl and got the same production.

Correlation is not causation. You have said nothing with any merit. And oh yeah, Marshawn Lynch is a future HOFer and he lead Seattle to a pretty convincing super bowl win over Denver a few years ago.. So that pretty much destroys your stupid theory.

The only team that wins with any consistency is NE, and you can't copy what they do.

 

[mattjames2010]

Correlation is not causation. You have said nothing with any merit. And oh yeah, Marshawn Lynch is a future HOFer and he lead Seattle to a pretty convincing super bowl win over Denver a few years ago.. So that pretty much destroys your stupid theory.

The only team that wins with any consistency is NE, and you can't copy what they do.

LOL "correlation is not causation" - just going on 20 freakin' years without an elite RB and WR getting rings, but eat up contracts, but yes - they are certainly a great NEED to get to win a Super Bowl. Seems you are still struggling with the point here....

> Marshawn Lynch is a future HOFer and he lead Seattle to a pretty convincing super bowl win over Denver a few years ago.

Marshawn Lynch in that "pretty convincing Super Bowl" had 39 yards rushing on 15 carries for an average below 3 YPC and a long of 18 yards. Yes, without that AMAZING performance - they wouldn't have won it. LOL

> The only team that wins with any consistency is NE, and you can't copy what they do.

Every team that has won a Super Bowl outside of the Patriots the past 15 years have had this

1. An elite QB
2. A great/elite defense

The Patriots don't have a unique "formula" - what they have is a great defensive guru head coach and elite QB every year that is able to put together what wins you super bowls - a great QB or a great defense, they normally have one or both.

We want Elliott to take us there with his 15+ million a year contract (he'll probably want more) even though history shows, elite RBs don't win you Super Bowls, they just eat up cap space. Going to be great that both Cooper and Elliott will be taking up 30+ cap space a year between the two and Dak could potentially make that 60+ if he high balls Jerry with some trailer park sob story.

 

[kskboys]

No crap you need a good offense - I'm not against a running game. It would be great if some of you hopping into the discussion actually read the title. This is about ELITE RBs not winning Super Bowls. Again, you want to explain the trend, chief?

Show me the amount of times you can lose your elite QB and win it all. Show me the amount of times you lose your elite corner and defensive player and you reproduce their production with ease - Anderson stepped in and gave similar production to Gurley for 4 weeks. You aren't replacing a top 5 DE that easily. You aren't replacing a top 5 corner/safety that easy.

Again, until you can rattle off the list of the past 15 years and somehow manage, without reaching, that there is a long list of elite RBs and WRs, you have nothing and you're attempting to derail the very topic we are discussing. The Pats fanboy forum dweller already attempted this - the MOST you have is Lynch in the past 15 years - and even then, they could have sat Lynch out for that Super Bowl and got the same production.

Disagree w/ the importance you're placing on corners. Corners have been replaced w/ regularity w/ little dropoff. As long as you have decent backups. It's the trenches that are the hardest to replace, prolly on both sides of the ball. Aside from QB, of course.

The results of replacing any position on the field quite often comes down to the quality of the backup. I'd say mostly.

What you're missing here is that Anderson had already proven to be a quality NFL starter. Yes, he seemingly had motivational problems or something, but the fact remains that he was a quality starter.

You can take any position and look at the best players in the NFL at that position and point to failures. The best CB in the game for a long time was Revis, and he consistently failed. Had to join a super bowl ready team to finally win it. And they couldn't wait to dump him afterwards. Gilmore couldn't get anywhere until he joined a super bowl ready team. Joe Haden, Asomugha, Grimes, Verner, Flowers, the list is long of top corners who didn't get there.

And, once again, you can do that w/ any position. The only position that affects the team enough to drag them to the playoffs is QB. All other positions depend completely on the team.

 

[kskboys]

LOL "correlation is not causation" - just going on 20 freakin' years without an elite RB and WR getting rings, but eat up contracts, but yes - they are certainly a great NEED to get to win a Super Bowl. Seems you are still struggling with the point here....

> Marshawn Lynch is a future HOFer and he lead Seattle to a pretty convincing super bowl win over Denver a few years ago.

Marshawn Lynch in that "pretty convincing Super Bowl" had 39 yards rushing on 15 carries for an average below 3 YPC and a long of 18 yards. Yes, without that AMAZING performance - they wouldn't have won it. LOL

> The only team that wins with any consistency is NE, and you can't copy what they do.

Every team that has won a Super Bowl outside of the Patriots the past 15 years have had this

1. An elite QB
2. A great/elite defense

The Patriots don't have a unique "formula" - what they have is a great defensive guru head coach and elite QB every year that is able to put together what wins you super bowls - a great QB or a great defense, they normally have one or both.

We want Elliott to take us there with his 15+ million a year contract (he'll probably want more) even though history shows, elite RBs don't win you Super Bowls, they just eat up cap space. Going to be great that both Cooper and Elliott will be taking up 30+ cap space a year between the two and Dak could potentially make that 60+ if he high balls Jerry with some trailer park sob story.

I do agree that elite RB's are not THE answer. However, it's very hard to win it w/o a competent one who gets the tough yards.

 

[mattjames2010]

Disagree w/ the importance you're placing on corners. Corners have been replaced w/ regularity w/ little dropoff. As long as you have decent backups. It's the trenches that are the hardest to replace, prolly on both sides of the ball. Aside from QB, of course.

The results of replacing any position on the field quite often comes down to the quality of the backup. I'd say mostly.

What you're missing here is that Anderson had already proven to be a quality NFL starter. Yes, he seemingly had motivational problems or something, but the fact remains that he was a quality starter.

You can take any position and look at the best players in the NFL at that position and point to failures. The best CB in the game for a long time was Revis, and he consistently failed. Had to join a super bowl ready team to finally win it. And they couldn't wait to dump him afterwards. Gilmore couldn't get anywhere until he joined a super bowl ready team. Joe Haden, Asomugha, Grimes, Verner, Flowers, the list is long of top corners who didn't get there.

And, once again, you can do that w/ any position. The only position that affects the team enough to drag them to the playoffs is QB. All other positions depend completely on the team.

But we aren't just talking about "corners" - we are discussing great corners. And again, no, they don't just get replaced easily. Again, I want you to provide me a list of great/elite corners in their prime that go down and they have someone behind them to replace that production. That's the comparison here - you can replace an elite RBs production quite easily - even if it's spreading the ball between backs, you aren't doing this with a CB - they have too much of a single role and it impacts the back end of a defense far more.

Revis won a Super Bowl and got to two championships - that was with bad QB play, a bad HC - he was essentially shutting down one side of the field himself. He then went to New England, his one year there, and helped get them a Super Bowl after a 10 year drought.

Gilmore was trash most of his career and, what a shocker, the year he played as the #1 corner in the league...the Patriots win a Super Bowl. How did it end up last year when he played poorly and the Eagles put up whatever they wanted on the defense?

And no, you cannot do this with any position - dude, I'm sick and tired of the same argument with you. Nothing has changed - OLB, DE, and CB all have elite players that have won super bowls the past 15 years.

 

[mattjames2010]

I do agree that elite RB's are not THE answer. However, it's very hard to win it w/o a competent one who gets the tough yards.

And yet, year after year, teams don't need elite RBs to get those "tough yards" for them and win a Super Bowl.