Jason Witten - now ranked 4th among TEs this season

[LACowboysFan1]

In some ways, though, that makes the accomplishment more difficult. If you are the main receiving threat, then teams are going to try to take you out of the game.

Then you could say that if he's elite he'd still have the great numbers. Irvin was obviously the main receiving threat but despite that he excelled, both statistically and otherwise.

But I don't think anyone would say Ertz isn't one of the top receiving tight ends in the league...

 

[Future]

ng but when we lose it is all him. Your a joke

You're*

 

[Future]

the thing about facing pressure is not theoretical. its real. did you watch the saints game? or the Jets game? in the Jets game we were missing two starting tackles...so how else are you going to protect the QB? with Jarwin!?

and I am not against using Jarwin, I like to see more double TE sets and perhaps Jarwin in obvious passing situations (long 3rd downs). but Jarwin is far from a complete player. he is still learning the nuences of being a TE...

btw, Jason witten has had two catches of over 20 and one for 18 (ok, almost 20)…..

Which is why I said "context of the game matters." Yes, if you're using your TE to block then it's Witt over Jarwin.

My issue is with that line of thinking. You stop pressure with explosive plays, especially in the middle of the field. My point isn't really about Witt vs. Jarwin, it's the fact that JG does not understand how to beat pressure with aggression and, in the vein of being safe, limits the offensive upside. That problem has always been a staple of this offense.

 

[Proof]

Poor Jarwin….like Office Politics.

True, any functional office will prioritize effectiveness and production. shame.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Which is why I said "context of the game matters." Yes, if you're using your TE to block then it's Witt over Jarwin.

My issue is with that line of thinking. You stop pressure with explosive plays, especially in the middle of the field. My point isn't really about Witt vs. Jarwin, it's the fact that JG does not understand how to beat pressure with aggression and, in the vein of being safe, limits the offensive upside. That problem has always been a staple of this offense.

not to change the argument...but is it Moore or is it JG?

but , this year we have attacked deep more often than not... specially with cobb, cooper and gallup…..do I want to see more of Jarwin. yes. he also has to produce. he hasn't shown up against stronger opponents, but shown up against weaker ones....that's a tell tale sign. you are focused on a few plays he made, down the seam and think that we haven't tried that...not sure if that's the case. perhaps we have and he wasn't open....

there are a lot better options ahead of him, cobb, cooper, gallup, even witten for short and intermediate one (Witten is a lot better than Jarwin in that area, his veteran savvy shows), zeke and perhaps sooner than later pollard once he learns his blocking assignments better.....and there is only one ball to go around.....

 

[Future]

not to change the argument...but is it Moore or is it JG

Those 3 crappy games and the increased reliance on Witten screams JG.

 

[catiii]

In 246 games he has a grand total of 9 fumbles. NINE. Or one every 27.33 games.

He had ONE in the 2015, 2016 and 2017 seasons. So he's had his for the year.

I'll take one fumble every 1.68 seasons, thank you very much...

Zeke the CaboWabo cowboy fumbles SIX times in one year 2018 leading the league that year in fumbles for RBs and people complain about Witten. SMH

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Those 3 crappy games and the increased reliance on Witten screams JG.

increased? we are talking about 5 plays a game, knowing that total number of plays is different in each game...how many plays did Jarwin get to play each game, what did he produce as a result? ...but here we go again...when we lose its JG. when we win its Moore. its never JG...and I think that's extreme. in the Jets game I can understand...we were missing two starting tackles and you have to protect the QB...he was still getting pummeled...we were missing cobb and cooper, two of the three top WRs on the team. we still scored 22, good enough to win...defense had a melt down.

with that said, as a poster said...Jarwin has had 3 plays of 20 yard plus...well witten has had 2....and witten is hell of a lot better blocker. perhaps Jarwin at this point is a gadget, limited capability TE...we all want Celek and Kelce but Jarwin is not in the same zip code as those guys and we can't wish/imagine him to be based on three plays

 

[Future]

increased? we are talking about 5 plays a game, knowing that total number of plays is different in each game...how many plays did Jarwin get to play each game, what did he produce as a result? ...but here we go again...when we lose its JG. when we win its Moore. its never JG...and I think that's extreme. in the Jets game I can understand...we were missing two starting tackles and you have to protect the QB...he was still getting pummeled...we were missing cobb and cooper, two of the three top WRs on the team. we still scored 22, good enough to win...defense had a melt down.

with that said, as a poster said...Jarwin has had 3 plays of 20 yard plus...well witten has had 2....and witten is hell of a lot better blocker. perhaps Jarwin at this point is a gadget, limited capability TE...we all want Celek and Kelce but Jarwin is not in the same zip code as those guys and we can't wish/imagine him to be based on three plays

He was getting pummeled and they kept trying to do the same thing over and over and over again, THAT IS THE PROBLEM and it has been true for JG since 2008 so, yes, it is on him. You don't score 22 and expect to win in the current NFL, and both of those philosophies are the problem. And if you're expecting to win on such a razor thin margin, 5 plays matters, because those games are won and lost on a handful of plays.

And yes, his snap % increased. Over the first 3, 65%. Over the next 3, 83%. Independent of the actual number of plays, that's a huge philosophical change. The offense, unequivocally got more conservative at the Saints game. I don't know why that's a question. Witten's workload is evidence of that.

Witten has had 2 but one was a catch and run - an anomaly. He's not a vertical threat and hasn't been for a long, long time. Jarwin can get down the field and keep LBs and safeties honest. He doesn't have to be Kelce (Celek sucks idk who you mean) to do that.

This team does not win because of JG and it has not for a decade. Don't bother bringing it up b/c you're not going to change my mind. The less responsibility he has, the better the team performs, and that has been true for years.

 

[CowboysExchange]

Witten scored 2 checkdown tds 1 against washington and one against the Giants and now hes gone on a scoreless streak for 5 straight games. Thank Goodness were NOT IN THE PLAYOFFS WHILE HES IN THIS 5 GAME SCORING SLUMP.

IS THIS THE YR #82 SCORES HIS 2ND PLAYOFF TD OF HIS CAREER OR WILL THE WRS and Rbs HAVE TO OVERCOME THE LACK OF TE PLAYOFF PRODUCTION WITH THESE SCORELESS TES again like ALWAYS.

Everybody in Dallas Cowboy Nation thinks the Tes are excused from Scoring lol and that its up to the Rbs and Wr Core to CARRY THEIR LOAD. NOT ME. Talent and Winning Trumps SENIORITY or Scheme and its time to SCALE BACK THE TE ROLE IF WE DO MAKE IT TO THE PLAYOFFS BECAUSE THIS DUAL TE PASSING OFFENSE IS A JOKE COME PLAYOFF TIME!

IVE SEEN ALL OF OUR SEASON ENDING PLAYS AND PLAYOFF GAMES AND OUR CHECKDOWN TE CORE GETS SCHOOLED EVERYTIME!!!

How are the WRS AND RBS Supposed to carry the TEAM at Scoring from the Bench since this LOSER Coaching staff cant run a Tight End'less Formation for 10 years????? NOT ONE SINGLE PASSING PLAY WITHOUT A TE IS THE GARRETT CURSE.

These tes are pawns and cant produce against sub .500 teams much less playoff teams. Just against subpar division rivals during blowout games

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

In some ways, though, that makes the accomplishment more difficult. If you are the main receiving threat, then teams are going to try to take you out of the game.

I get that line of thought. However, I think it's harder to take TEs out of the game because you are forced to cover them with certain personnel and you can force this through scheme. Still though, you aren't ever going to have a chance to put up numbers like that if you don't get the targets etc. He's a really good TE but it comes down to what you want out of the position to me and not all offenses call for the same things. As example, we need our TEs to be able to block. That's important to our offense.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

He was getting pummeled and they kept trying to do the same thing over and over and over again, THAT IS THE PROBLEM and it has been true for JG since 2008 so, yes, it is on him. You don't score 22 and expect to win in the current NFL, and both of those philosophies are the problem. And if you're expecting to win on such a razor thin margin, 5 plays matters, because those games are won and lost on a handful of plays.

And yes, his snap % increased. Over the first 3, 65%. Over the next 3, 83%. Independent of the actual number of plays, that's a huge philosophical change. The offense, unequivocally got more conservative at the Saints game. I don't know why that's a question. Witten's workload is evidence of that.

Witten has had 2 but one was a catch and run - an anomaly. He's not a vertical threat and hasn't been for a long, long time. Jarwin can get down the field and keep LBs and safeties honest. He doesn't have to be Kelce (Celek sucks idk who you mean) to do that.

This team does not win because of JG and it has not for a decade. Don't bother bringing it up b/c you're not going to change my mind. The less responsibility he has, the better the team performs, and that has been true for years.

doing the same thing over and over again? I did see some of that in jets game and some in saints game, but also in the jets game that we needed to help the OL as they were struggling...we were also missing two of the top WRs, that's 4 offensive starters...that game was all on defensive meltdown...even with that game plan we scored 22 and missed a 3 pointer (thank you maher)

. and you like to go by percentage to make your numbers look good. instead go by total number of snaps and game situation....and again, you are trying to lay 100% of blame on JG...then credit him for the wins...but its always all bad things are JG and all good things are somebody else..... , game planning week to week with coaches happens the same way with all the coaches...game calling happens the same way each week....


against the saints...the offense was seemingly more conservative...you are playing against the 31st worst run defense in the league with one of the best OLs in the game......I wanted to shove the ball down their throat.....but fred and Williams had awful awful awful game blocking......, but also that we had opportunities when we were aggressive and we didn't cash in. in a game with limited opportunities you have to cash in...... cobb was wide open in the end zone and dak missed him. Witten down the seam and he fumbled. going for it on 4th down and zeke fumbled. cooper had a bad night with pass interference penalties. in a tight close game you have to cash in on those opportunities. we didn't.... witten and zeke fumbles were HUGE...we could have kept drives alive and be in field goals position in a 12-10 game....

also you want to call the witten catch and runs anamoly because it fits your argument...then jarwin catches were also an anamoly!!! no? he doesn't make many so any catches by him is an anamoly….Jarwin has had good games against weak opponents...against better opponents even according to your stats he has been in the game, but ineffective..... do something against better opponents and you get more chances...plus against the jets, I didn't/wouldn't want jarwin in the game most of the time. Dak was getting killed as it is, much less having Jarwin to help block!!! his average time to throw was about 2 seconds in that game...not enough time to get anyone open down field, specially when gallup who had chances in that game, kept dropping balls....again, cash in, when opportunities are there...

with that said, I am not dismissing JG factor, but I don't lay all the blame on him neither....for example against GB, Dak had one of his worst halves of football in his career...he was just off the mark and his missed/bad throws cost us 14 points which would have totally changed the game...opportunities....lets cash them in

 

[Future]

doing the same thing over and over again? I did see some of that in jets game and some in saints game, but also in the jets game that we needed to help the OL as they were struggling...we were also missing two of the top WRs, that's 4 offensive starters...that game was all on defensive meltdown...even with that game plan we scored 22 and missed a 3 pointer (thank you maher)

. and you like to go by percentage to make your numbers look good. instead go by total number of snaps and game situation....and again, you are trying to lay 100% of blame on JG...then credit him for the wins...but its always all bad things are JG and all good things are somebody else..... , game planning week to week with coaches happens the same way with all the coaches...game calling happens the same way each week....


against the saints...the offense was seemingly more conservative...you are playing against the 31st worst run defense in the league with one of the best OLs in the game......I wanted to shove the ball down their throat.....but fred and Williams had awful awful awful game blocking......, but also that we had opportunities when we were aggressive and we didn't cash in. in a game with limited opportunities you have to cash in...... cobb was wide open in the end zone and dak missed him. Witten down the seam and he fumbled. going for it on 4th down and zeke fumbled. cooper had a bad night with pass interference penalties. in a tight close game you have to cash in on those opportunities. we didn't.... witten and zeke fumbles were HUGE...we could have kept drives alive and be in field goals position in a 12-10 game....

also you want to call the witten catch and runs anamoly because it fits your argument...then jarwin catches were also an anamoly!!! no? he doesn't make many so any catches by him is an anamoly….Jarwin has had good games against weak opponents...against better opponents even according to your stats he has been in the game, but ineffective..... do something against better opponents and you get more chances...plus against the jets, I didn't/wouldn't want jarwin in the game most of the time. Dak was getting killed as it is, much less having Jarwin to help block!!! his average time to throw was about 2 seconds in that game...not enough time to get anyone open down field, specially when gallup who had chances in that game, kept dropping balls....again, cash in, when opportunities are there...

with that said, I am not dismissing JG factor, but I don't lay all the blame on him neither....for example against GB, Dak had one of his worst halves of football in his career...he was just off the mark and his missed/bad throws cost us 14 points which would have totally changed the game...opportunities....lets cash them in

You are just entirely missing my point and taking a lot of words to get there.

 

[CowboysExchange]

I get that line of thought. However, I think it's harder to take TEs out of the game because you are forced to cover them with certain personnel and you can force this through scheme. Still though, you aren't ever going to have a chance to put up numbers like that if you don't get the targets etc. He's a really good TE but it comes down to what you want out of the position to me and not all offenses call for the same things. As example, we need our TEs to be able to block. That's important to our offense.

The te is supposed to have a Size advantage and Have go up and get a ball skills and be a red zone dominant scoring threat using stature. Our tes are checkdown seam route specialists only that catch tds w 2 feet on the ground against scrub defenses in blowout games to where their scoring contributions dont win us anything but their lack of scoring for sure loses us games when they go cold for 5-6 weeks.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The te is supposed to have a Size advantage and Have go up and get a ball skills and be a red zone dominant scoring threat using stature. Our tes are checkdown seam route specialists only that catch tds w 2 feet on the ground against scrub defenses in blowout games to where their scoring contributions dont win us anything but their lack of scoring for sure loses us games when they go cold for 5-6 weeks.

There are only so many balls to go around. If your Offense is run centric and you rely on your WRs in the Redzone, then the production of the TE is secondary. Even Ertz, what's the best TD season he's ever had? It's 8 and he's done it twice (2018/17) but look at his production in his previous 4 seasons. 13 TDs in the 4 previous seasons. That's 3.25 TDs a year and look at this season. 7 games in, or almost half way through the regular season, and he only has 1 TD. There is a balance to everything and While I understand that we all would like to have the most production at every given position, there is always that balance. The question to me is, would you trade the production of a Cooper or a Zeke for more production out of the TE position? Some of this is also about the QB, of course. Who does the QB like to throw to, who does he trust? That's who he's going to go to most in scoring situation, most of the time.

 

[Techsass]

Sounds like a lot of you want to see a completely different offense than what the Cowboys run.

 

[CowboysExchange]

I said the same.. People just want young blood.

Jason is arguably the greatest at his position of all-time, without dispute he is top 3 of all-time. Those that expected him to be worse than Jarwin were not looking at it holistically.

Though, I must say, #4 in the league is a bit of a surprise. I was expecting more in the #8 - #12 range.

neither of our tes can score beans against sub .500 teams and havent Under Garrett in a decade but we continue to believe having a weak dual te passing attack doesnt hold back this team who cant score against good defenses because our Tes go AWOL when were playing sub 500 teams. We beat the Choker Lions and Stafford who is the only qb in Nfl history to fumble 2 plays in a row to lose a playoff game. And the Seahags who were borderline playoff contenders. Thats our playoff success in 10 years using witten and hanna, witten and Escobar, and witten and Jarwin who have no proven playoff scoring abilities and we cant even substitute on passing snaps under the Clapper. These tes are who they are. We just need a COACH who can pull these tes out on critical passing downs in favor of our better slot wrs and rbs.

 

[dsturgeon]

I am not saying Witten can not be productive, but a lot of his success comes from the very good wr passing game and the running game. He is no longer a focal point, like he used to be. So, his role has become easier.

I think he should be on the field during 2 te sets, and thrown to, but if their is one te on the field, I would like to see Jarwin. I want to see TE screens, passes down the seam, and the things witten cant do.

The TE position is no longer a must for the passing game, so why not use a younger TE who can give you more of the explosive plays.

 

[Doomsday101]

I am not saying Witten can not be productive, but a lot of his success comes from the very good wr passing game and the running game. He is no longer a focal point, like he used to be. So, his role has become easier.

I think he should be on the field during 2 te sets, and thrown to, but if their is one te on the field, I would like to see Jarwin. I want to see TE screens, passes down the seam, and the things witten cant do.

The TE position is no longer a must for the passing game, so why not use a younger TE who can give you more of the explosive plays.

Jarwin will have to learn to block better. Those early down you will see them run more so why would you have your best blocking TE sitting? I like Jarwin but he is more of a receiver than a true TE.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I am not saying Witten can not be productive, but a lot of his success comes from the very good wr passing game and the running game. He is no longer a focal point, like he used to be. So, his role has become easier.

I think he should be on the field during 2 te sets, and thrown to, but if their is one te on the field, I would like to see Jarwin. I want to see TE screens, passes down the seam, and the things witten cant do.

The TE position is no longer a must for the passing game, so why not use a younger TE who can give you more of the explosive plays.

Because we are a running team and we have a QB who plays light years better when he has a lot of time to read the defense and hella worse when he has to make quick reads and snap throws. It probably comes down to blocking.