Pearson vs. Swann vs. Carmichael: Objective look

[Established1971]

Like many of us on these boards, I am incensed that Drew is not in the HoF. I decided to take a look at each receiver and figure out why Drew is not in while the others are.


My opinion will not be popular. I don't give a ****.

Swann is in the Hall solely because the play in SB X has been shown a million times and is imprinted in peoples heads as something sacred. He is a true example of being there because it is called the Hall of "FAME"

 

[OmerV]

He had control of the ball which allowed him to bring the ball into his body. The head of officiating who explained the new rule said bringing the ball into the body is considered a football move. Johnson had a body part down and the only question is whether he had the ball long enough. It’s debatable but I think he did.

I won't argue with the head of officiating. If pulling the the ball in is a football move, pretty much anything is going to be a catch unless the arms are still outstretched move short of losing the ball while the arms are still outstretched and before two foot or another body part hits the ground.

 

[OmerV]

In this video he explains that bringing the ball in is considered a football move.

I just looked at this. He clearly does include pulling the ball in as a "football move", but he gave several examples of football moves without showing that. On one of the examples the receiver had pulled the ball in, but the "football move" he pointed to was the 3-4 steps after the ball was pulled in. Shouldn't pulling the ball in have qualified without the need for the subsequent step?

lol - always some uncertainty.

 

[MarcusRock]

I found the summary of the changes in this link. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ams-unanimously-approve-simplified-catch-rule

It looks like the going to the ground element is gone, but that there are still 3 elements of a catch as shown below. I think the 1st element is very close like you said - did he have it long enough to establish control? I see why you believe he did, but I could see where officials might be unsure. The 2nd element I think he fulfilled because even though he didn't get 2 feet down, the elbow and shoulder would qualify as "another body part". The 3rd element I think is the biggest problem. I don't think he either made the required "football move", or had the ability to do so. I don't think merely pulling the ball in as any receiver would qualifies as that.


The new rules defining a catch include:

1. Control of the ball.
2. Two feet down or another body part.
3. A football move such as:
» A third step;
» Reaching/extending for the line-to-gain;
» Or the ability to perform such an act.

The key change to the rule eliminated the "going-to-the-ground" element of the previous rule.

He had control of the ball which allowed him to bring the ball into his body. The head of officiating who explained the new rule said bringing the ball into the body is considered a football move. Johnson had a body part down and the only question is whether he had the ball long enough. It’s debatable but I think he did.

How are y'all discussing this rule and didn't call this board's expert in? Lol. Actually, you both are off on this.

1. For OmerV, the Going to The Ground rule is actually still on the books (see red highlights below). What's changed is its overruling the UPRIGHT catch rule after that rule's re-write now allows expanded actions like a 3rd step, reaching (a proper one, lol), etc. to satisfy part (c) of the UPRIGHT rule. GTTG is still there to govern diving catches like Butch Johnson's where (a), (b), and (c) haven't been satisfied and kicks in at that time.

2. For KJJ, Butch's catch would not be a catch by today's rules because it would be governed by the GTTG rule. If you read part (c) of the UPRIGHT rule, you have to satisfy (a) and (b) in that order before considering (c). Butch didn't do (b). He got 1 foot down and then his next touching of the ground was "contacting the ground" per the rule which pried the ball loose.

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is
inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take
an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Notes:
(1) Movement of the ball does not automatically result in loss of control.
(2) If a player, who satisfied (a) and (b), but has not satisfied (c), contacts the ground and loses control of the ball, it is an
incomplete pass if the ball hits the ground before he regains control, or if he regains control out of bounds.
(3) A receiver is considered a player in a defenseless posture (See Rule 12, Section 2, Article 9) throughout the entire
process of the catch and until the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent.
(4) If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers.
It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is
muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the
loose ball.
(5) If a player, who is in possession of the ball, is held up and carried out of bounds by an opponent before both feet or any
part of his body other than his hands touches the ground inbounds, it is a completed or intercepted pass. It is not
necessary for the player to maintain control of the ball when he lands out of bounds.​

 

[MarcusRock]

I just looked at this. He clearly does include pulling the ball in as a "football move", but he gave several examples of football moves without showing that. On one of the examples the receiver had pulled the ball in, but the "football move" he pointed to was the 3-4 steps after the ball was pulled in. Shouldn't pulling the ball in have qualified without the need for the subsequent step?

lol - always some uncertainty.

He says "pulls the ball in" but the actual rule states "tuck the ball away." I think if you're dealing with rules you need to quote them verbatim to keep it to black and white legalese so you don't open things up to interpretation. This guy had another gaffe when discussing why a play wasn't a catch and stated "after he makes the catch" in his explanation. This is why of the recent guys to head officiating I liked Pereira the best. He wasn't perfect either but his explanations were usually pretty clear as they are on the broadcasts (except those tripping penalties in New England, lol).

 

[KJJ]

How are y'all discussing this rule and didn't call this board's expert in? Lol. Actually, you both are off on this.

1. For OmerV, the Going to The Ground rule is actually still on the books (see red highlights below). What's changed is its overruling the UPRIGHT catch rule after that rule's re-write now allows expanded actions like a 3rd step, reaching (a proper one, lol), etc. to satisfy part (c) of the UPRIGHT rule. GTTG is still there to govern diving catches like Butch Johnson's where (a), (b), and (c) haven't been satisfied and kicks in at that time.

2. For KJJ, Butch's catch would not be a catch by today's rules because it would be governed by the GTTG rule. If you read part (c) of the UPRIGHT rule, you have to satisfy (a) and (b) in that order before considering (c). Butch didn't do (b). He got 1 foot down and then his next touching of the ground was "contacting the ground" per the rule which pried the ball loose.

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is
inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take
an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Notes:
(1) Movement of the ball does not automatically result in loss of control.
(2) If a player, who satisfied (a) and (b), but has not satisfied (c), contacts the ground and loses control of the ball, it is an
incomplete pass if the ball hits the ground before he regains control, or if he regains control out of bounds.
(3) A receiver is considered a player in a defenseless posture (See Rule 12, Section 2, Article 9) throughout the entire
process of the catch and until the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent.
(4) If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers.
It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is
muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the
loose ball.
(5) If a player, who is in possession of the ball, is held up and carried out of bounds by an opponent before both feet or any
part of his body other than his hands touches the ground inbounds, it is a completed or intercepted pass. It is not
necessary for the player to maintain control of the ball when he lands out of bounds.​

I gave my opinion. This is becoming way too time-consuming. Not worth the effort.

 

[MarcusRock]

I gave my opinion. This is becoming way too time-consuming. Not worth the effort.

Lol. Okay.

 

[Thomas82]

From what I've read, Drew still had some good football left when his career ended.

 

[OmerV]

How are y'all discussing this rule and didn't call this board's expert in? Lol. Actually, you both are off on this.

1. For OmerV, the Going to The Ground rule is actually still on the books (see red highlights below). What's changed is its overruling the UPRIGHT catch rule after that rule's re-write now allows expanded actions like a 3rd step, reaching (a proper one, lol), etc. to satisfy part (c) of the UPRIGHT rule. GTTG is still there to govern diving catches like Butch Johnson's where (a), (b), and (c) haven't been satisfied and kicks in at that time.

2. For KJJ, Butch's catch would not be a catch by today's rules because it would be governed by the GTTG rule. If you read part (c) of the UPRIGHT rule, you have to satisfy (a) and (b) in that order before considering (c). Butch didn't do (b). He got 1 foot down and then his next touching of the ground was "contacting the ground" per the rule which pried the ball loose.

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS. A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) in the field of play, at the sideline, or in the end zone if a player, who is
inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, performs any act common to the game (e.g., tuck the ball away, extend it forward, take
an additional step, turn upfield, or avoid or ward off an opponent), or he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Notes:
(1) Movement of the ball does not automatically result in loss of control.
(2) If a player, who satisfied (a) and (b), but has not satisfied (c), contacts the ground and loses control of the ball, it is an
incomplete pass if the ball hits the ground before he regains control, or if he regains control out of bounds.
(3) A receiver is considered a player in a defenseless posture (See Rule 12, Section 2, Article 9) throughout the entire
process of the catch and until the player is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent.
(4) If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers.
It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is
muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the
loose ball.
(5) If a player, who is in possession of the ball, is held up and carried out of bounds by an opponent before both feet or any
part of his body other than his hands touches the ground inbounds, it is a completed or intercepted pass. It is not
necessary for the player to maintain control of the ball when he lands out of bounds.​

Thanks for this. I was going off a summary in an article that obviously wasn't accurate. The actual rule that you posted is what I thought the rule was, so I appreciate you putting me back on the right path.

 

[OmerV]

From what I've read, Drew still had some good football left when his career ended.

He could still contribute, but his last year before the crash he was only 4th on the team in receiving yardage, and 3rd in receiving TD's, so he wasn't remotely a top receiver anymore.

 

[sideon]

I wasn't born when Pearson was in his prime but everyone will tell you that he was one of the most clutch players in NFL history, that along with being voted as part of an all decade team should make you a shoe-in for the hall of fame.

 

[black label]

Drew gave me child hood memories that no wr could