JJT: Whispers From the Star - 2/14/2020

KingintheNorth said:

He's not horrible. I don't like that he shies away from contact and is not a physical tackler when he does show up, but to think he was going to suddenly be a Pro Bowler reminds me of how poor of talent evaluators our defensive coaches were, and how dumb our Front Office was for listening to them.

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He's better than Budda Baker, who was in the Pro Bowl.

He also doesn't shy away from contact? He's just not big.

ABQCOWBOY said:

I don't think Marinelli's scheme is trash. Hell, he's been in the NFL for years, considered one of the top defensive cordinaters for years, he had a job in the NFL like two hours after he got released in Dallas.

I think there is something to the report that was aired earlier. The problem was not Marinelli or Richard, per say. The problem was that neither had full control over the entire Defense. When Rod ran is scheme up front, the LBs and secondary were not in sink with that and it created issues. I think that's probably more of the problem.

I think Marinelli can Coach but like all Coaches, you are as good as your talent. We have not really enjoyed the talent level on the Defensive Side of the ball, we've seen Offensively IMO. Who's fault is that? Hard to say for sure but I do think the guy can Coach. I just think it was time for him to move on.

That's just my opinion.

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The problem is the neither coach (Marinelli or Richard) was creative or innovative.

Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith are the architects of the defense that basically comes from the Steelers 70's Dynasty. This defense has been in high school (primarily teams with athleticism and speed) for decades. What Tony and Lovie did was innovate and put the right players in the right spots.

Marinelli and Kiffin never ran the cover 2 with success without Dungy or Smith.

Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 defense was 4-3 OVER it was innovation on the 4-3 and the NFL had not seen that type of 4-3 with a inverted man zone coverage (using the LBers). It was also innovative on personnel as linebackers were converted to DL and Safeties were converted to LBers.

Nolan is not innovative and the hiring of George Edwards basically is hedging that his knowledge of the 4-3 and Nolan of the 3-4 is a marriage that will improve the Dallas Defense. I will reserve my thoughts until I see it.

eromeopolk said:

The problem is the neither coach (Marinelli or Richard) was creative or innovative.

Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith are the architects of the defense that basically comes from the Steelers 70's Dynasty. This defense has been in high school (primarily teams with athleticism and speed) for decades. What Tony and Lovie did was innovate and put the right players in the right spots.

Marinelli and Kiffin never ran the cover 2 with success without Dungy or Smith.

Jimmy Johnson's 4-3 defense was 4-3 OVER it was innovation on the 4-3 and the NFL had not seen that type of 4-3 with a inverted man zone coverage (using the LBers). It was also innovative on personnel as linebackers were converted to DL and Safeties were converted to LBers.

Nolan is not innovative and the hiring of George Edwards basically is hedging that his knowledge of the 4-3 and Nolan of the 3-4 is a marriage that will improve the Dallas Defense. I will reserve my thoughts until I see it.

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I don't agree. Here is the thing, innovative is another way of saying you are taking a chance. Innovation on the Football Field just means that you are leaving something exposed and if the other team can find it, they can beat you with it. There is nothing new in Football. Everything has been done in the past. There is nothing that is truly innovative any longer, unless it's a result of a rule change or something very basic to the game. I've had this conversation about all these same things a hundred times, if I've had them once. I just don't buy it. I've done my share of playing and coaching over the years and what the Cowboys or other NFL teams run, is not what HS teams are using. It's not the Tampa2 and even when it was a true Tamp2, it was never run like that in HS. I'm sorry, that's just not true. It is of no importance, the fact remains that if you have the talent and if you have a team that is well coached, they can win with any scheme. That's the truth and that is what I believe.

Nolan over the years is not better then what we had IMO. He's different. George Edwards, I've seen Edwards. We ran him out of Dallas years ago. Fans couldn't wait to get rid of him in favor of Gary Gibbs. I'm sorry, I don't agree with you.

Future said:

He's better than Budda Baker, who was in the Pro Bowl.

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Whattttt????????????

Future said:

He also doesn't shy away from contact?

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He absolutely does. I don't have any issue with him, he's not as horrible as the People's Champion Jeff Heath. I'd like Woods to amount to something, but I have watched him duck and avoid contact way too many times.

Corso said:

Wow... she looks like my mother-in-law. Kind of freaky actually.

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Your mother in law is 30?

ABQCOWBOY said:

I don't think Marinelli's scheme is trash. Hell, he's been in the NFL for years, considered one of the top defensive cordinaters for years, he had a job in the NFL like two hours after he got released in Dallas.

I think there is something to the report that was aired earlier. The problem was not Marinelli or Richard, per say. The problem was that neither had full control over the entire Defense. When Rod ran is scheme up front, the LBs and secondary were not in sink with that and it created issues. I think that's probably more of the problem.

I think Marinelli can Coach but like all Coaches, you are as good as your talent. We have not really enjoyed the talent level on the Defensive Side of the ball, we've seen Offensively IMO. Who's fault is that? Hard to say for sure but I do think the guy can Coach. I just think it was time for him to move on.

That's just my opinion.

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In the age of the salary CAP the talent gap isn't as wide as it was in the past which makes it more important than ever to get advantages in scheme, adjustments and player utilization.

Marinelli lost me in the Green Bay playoff game back in 2016 when it took him almost an entire half and 3 straight TD drives to switch up and start going after Rodgers.

There are other games like the Denver game in 2017 when he sat back and soft zones letting them run plus dink and dunk Dallas to death, never switching up or trying to force a scrub QB to make throws to beat them. He clearly doesn't look at analytics or he would have played more man coverage Trubisky, even though he was completing 47% of his passes vs man on the season. It is why rookie QBs always have success vs his scheme, he never does much to make them uncomfortable.

In my opinion, the game changed and he hasn't adapted or got on board with those changes.

windjc said:

Your mother in law is 30?

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No. Oh my goodness... Really? People really think this simply?
She looks like her! What in the ever-loving...

And that chick is riding up to 40. She's not 30.

KingintheNorth said:

Whattttt????????????


He absolutely does. I don't have any issue with him, he's not as horrible as the People's Champion Jeff Heath. I'd like Woods to amount to something, but I have watched him duck and avoid contact way too many times.

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Budda Baker sucks. He can't cover.

ABQCOWBOY said:

I don't think Marinelli's scheme is trash. Hell, he's been in the NFL for years, considered one of the top defensive cordinaters for years, he had a job in the NFL like two hours after he got released in Dallas.

I think there is something to the report that was aired earlier. The problem was not Marinelli or Richard, per say. The problem was that neither had full control over the entire Defense. When Rod ran is scheme up front, the LBs and secondary were not in sink with that and it created issues. I think that's probably more of the problem.

I think Marinelli can Coach but like all Coaches, you are as good as your talent. We have not really enjoyed the talent level on the Defensive Side of the ball, we've seen Offensively IMO. Who's fault is that? Hard to say for sure but I do think the guy can Coach. I just think it was time for him to move on.

That's just my opinion.

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Unbelievable! Hello??? Marinelli for years was given final say on which defensive players to draft. The problem is the idiot made the wrong choices in players!

Yet, you want to defend him? Unbelievable!

Doomsday said:

In the age of the salary CAP the talent gap isn't as wide as it was in the past which makes it more important than ever to get advantages in scheme, adjustments and player utilization.

Marinelli lost me in the Green Bay playoff game back in 2016 when it took him almost an entire half and 3 straight TD drives to switch up and start going after Rodgers.

There are other games like the Denver game in 2017 when he sat back and soft zones letting them run plus dink and dunk Dallas to death, never switching up or trying to force a scrub QB to make throws to beat them. He clearly doesn't look at analytics or he would have played more man coverage Trubisky, even though he was completing 47% of his passes vs man on the season. It is why rookie QBs always have success vs his scheme, he never does much to make them uncomfortable.

In my opinion, the game changed and he hasn't adapted or got on board with those changes.

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Yeah, I don't agree with what you are saying here. If you put a guy like Aaron Donald in Marinelli's scheme and put DEs on the field who can come off the edge, if you have a MLB who can get depth in coverage and can make the tackles tight to the LOS, if you have a Safety who can get to all areas of the field, you can run Marinelli's scheme well. If you don't have those things, then you are going to suffer in that scheme. It's absolutely about personnel, especially at key positions on the field with that scheme.

Analytics is great and all that but it's a bunch of crap all too often. You can't change who you are in the middle of a game. I am no fan of Garrett but he wasn't lying when he said that the team doesn't really look at analytics much while the game is in progress. Analytics are useful for putting a game plan together but I don't see a great deal of application for them during an actual game. They help with tendencies but you still have to have the personnel to actually execute against those tendencies. Marinelli's scheme is predicated on being able to create discord up front through penetration all along the DL. Your LBs are forced to pick up a lot of the responsibilities your DL would normally be responsible for in a traditional 43. The defense is designed to basically force an Offense to a certain area of the field. That means you need to have quick LBs who are really good strikers. They need to be really good tacklers. They must be disciplined in their assignment responsibilities because your DL is going to be trying to get up field to create a certain result in terms of forcing the Offense to an area of the field. If your Defense isn't disciplined in this area, they are going to get gashed and that's what we saw all too often in Dallas. This is why the interaction between Marinelli and Richard was so critical. You can't be on a different page in that scheme. This is also why things like Analytics are not nearly as impactful as they are made out to be. This Defense is designed to force the Offense to react in a certain way. It is not designed to react to what the Offense is doing to you, which is why I don't believe that things like Analytics are nearly as impactful as many make them out to be in real game time situations. You are basically going away from what you are because the scheme is designed to make the Offense react, not the other way around. It's why it's so critical to use analytics to prepare and game plan with but not really in game so much.

Future said:

Budda Baker sucks. He can't cover.

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Exactly. Dude is a tackling machine though, which is probably why he got the Pro Bowl nod.

ClappingCarrot said:

Exactly. Dude is a tackling machine though, which is probably why he got the Pro Bowl nod.

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He makes a lot of tackles b/c he gives up the completion first lol. But yea, that's the reason he got in.

America's Cowboy said:

Unbelievable! Hello??? Marinelli for years was given final say on which defensive players to draft. The problem is the idiot made the wrong choices in players!

Yet, you want to defend him? Unbelievable!

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Really, I've never heard that. Where is this coming from?

ABQCOWBOY said:

Really, I've never heard that. Where is this coming from?

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This article comes from right after the 2016 season in January of 2017...

"Marinelli stands as the biggest voice in the Cowboys room when it comes to the NFL draft. His player profiles, his evaluations of talent supercede that of the scouting department. The profiles the scouts look for? On him. The draft board overrules during draft weekend? On him."

https://cowboyswire-usatoday-com.cd...ree-agency-development-players-stars-inherit/

There are others saying as much since then in recent years. One simply has to do some research. This topic has been debated several times on this very forum over the years as well with other posters making the same argument while providing links or videos to support their argument as well, so I find it very hard to believe you have never heard of how much influence Rod Marinelli had in the Cowboys draft room and selection of certain failed defensive players over others who have starred for other teams.

Where have you been ABQ?

America's Cowboy said:

This article comes from right after the 2016 season in January of 2017...

"Marinelli stands as the biggest voice in the Cowboys room when it comes to the NFL draft. His player profiles, his evaluations of talent supercede that of the scouting department. The profiles the scouts look for? On him. The draft board overrules during draft weekend? On him."

https://cowboyswire-usatoday-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/cowboyswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/30/dallas-cowboys-defense-sucks-rod-marinelli-front-office-draft-free-agency-development-players-stars-inherit/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE=#aoh=15820436864969&amp_ct=1582043716772&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://cowboyswire.usatoday.com/2017/01/30/dallas-cowboys-defense-sucks-rod-marinelli-front-office-draft-free-agency-development-players-stars-inherit/

There are others saying as much since then in recent years. One simply has to do some research. This topic has been debated several times on this very forum over the years as well with other posters making the same argument while providing links or videos to support their argument as well, so I find it very hard to believe you have never heard of how much influence Rod Marinelli had in the Cowboys draft room and selection of certain failed defensive players over others who have starred for other teams.

Where have you been ABQ?

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Where have I been? You are quoting a USA today article? Have they been relevant since like the 90s? The team has repeatedly said and specifically personnel, that the team's strategy, in terms of drafting is to determine the desired traits of the coaching staff. What type of players the scheme requires and then they identify the players and that's how the draft board is made up. You don't just allow coaches to randomly pick players. Coaches have input but they don't have the final word on player decisions. Jerry has said this over and over again. If a player was taken, that's on Jerry, that's not on the Coaching staff and it never hasn't been, since Parcells left the building. I mean, where have I been, I've been playing, coaching and watching football for 40 years and specifically, this team. Where have you been?

Rod went against the scouting team lead by Tom C in 2013 when he didn't want Sharrif Floyd as his DT as the team was transitioning to a 4-3. The war room was caught between a Dline coach saying he didn't want Floyd and the scouts who had Floyd as their 5th overall prospect in the draft.

In hindsight it worked out, as Minnesota thought the Cowboys were going to take Patterson at 31 overall, traded up and then it left the Cowboys with Frederick as their highest rated BPA (IIRC).

Floyd went on to have a knee surgery go wrong which ended his career early.

ABQCOWBOY said:

Where have I been? You are quoting a USA today article? Have they been relevant since like the 90s? The team has repeatedly said and specifically personnel, that the team's strategy, in terms of drafting is to determine the desired traits of the coaching staff. What type of players the scheme requires and then they identify the players and that's how the draft board is made up. You don't just allow coaches to randomly pick players. Coaches have input but they don't have the final word on player decisions. Jerry has said this over and over again. If a player was taken, that's on Jerry, that's not on the Coaching staff and it never hasn't been, since Parcells left the building. I mean, where have I been, I've been playing, coaching and watching football for 40 years and specifically, this team. Where have you been?

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I don't care how much you played, coached or watched football, if you believe Rod Marinelli had no big say as to who to draft when it comes to the defense, well, I've got a piece of swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

America's Cowboy said:

I don't care how much you played, coached or watched football, if you believe Rod Marinelli had no big say as to who to draft when it comes to the defense, well, I've got a piece of swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you.

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I'm sure you don't but then, why would I, in turn, give your opinions or posts any credibility in return. Maybe you should go head out to your swamp land in Florida and think about it.

ABQCOWBOY said:

I'm sure you don't but then, why would I, in turn, give your opinions or posts any credibility in return. Maybe you should go head out to your swamp land in Florida and think about it.

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Yeah, as if your opinions have been right about the Cowboys? All of that "experience", yet you guess wrong many times.

America's Cowboy said:

Yeah, as if your opinions have been right about the Cowboys? All of that "experience", yet you guess wrong many times.

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Cool. You want to be 5, go ahead. But you won't waste my time with this childishness.