4-3 defense > 3-4 defense

plasticman · Apr 22, 2020

One day a brilliant new defensive mind will construct the 3.5-3.5 defense in which there will be an outside linebacker with the ability to line up at the DE position. There will be a huge DT that can play a gap or line up over a center.

But it won't be me.......

dogberry · Apr 22, 2020

I thought New England ran an amorphous mob defense designed by a coach with an iq of 150 to confuse me and the other team’s 85 iq quarterback.

Oz-of-Cowboy-Country · Apr 22, 2020

Well McCarthy did say get me the player and I'll fit him into the scheme. But I don't know how some people translate that into us looking an outside linebacker type.

nobody · Apr 22, 2020

Don't the best defenses run hybrids anymore? 4-3 or 3-4 with nickel and switching as needed?

Jarv · Apr 22, 2020

dogberry said:
I thought New England ran an amorphous mob defense designed by a coach with an iq of 150 to confuse me and the other team’s 85 iq quarterback.

I was seeing ghost out there.

Doomsday101 · Apr 22, 2020

Based on things I have read it sounds as if Dallas will use a hybrid style defense. In my view 4-3/3-4 means little when tackling was so poor last season. I'm more interested in correcting the fundamentals than what alignments we use.

ColoradoCowboy · Apr 22, 2020

I don't know if our plans would be counted as a true "hybrid" defense. I understand that we will play a base 4-3 and there will be times that we pull a DE for an extra LB.

SackMaster · Apr 22, 2020

Everything goes in cycles.

If the majority of NFL teams are running a 4-3 D, the the odds of finding multiple really good passrushers are pretty slim as the Demand is much higher than the Supply.

Dallas switched at a pretty good time back in 2005, but ultimately failed due to not getting arguably the most important position, NT. Hey, I was a fan of Ratliff, but a "passrushing NT" was never a good idea. After a while, teams learned that you can just guide the "300lbs NT" passed the play and free up blockers to get to the LBs.

IMO, you pick the better player and make a role for him. Otherwise you likely end up picking players that match a role and they end up not being good even in that "perfect" role.

Anyways, JMHO

xwalker · Apr 22, 2020

John813 said:
Cowboys have run a 3 man line in the past. 3-3-5 nickel defense that gave the Cardinals fits back in 2017 for example.

Standard formation will be 4 DL. Wouldn't shock me if they had packages where a guy like Gregory may rush standing up here and there or have more exotic looks or blitz packages.

That was the opposite of a 3 man line in a 3-4 defense.

Cowboys 3 man DL
DEs same as 4-3. One DT is removed.
DEs are the outside pass rushers.
Wide gaps inside each DE.

3 man DL in a 3-4
OLBs are the outside players.
The 3 DL are aligned with a tight spacing.
Basically 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs instead of 2 DTs in a 4-3.

The Cowboys often used a 3 man DL in 2019.
Jaylon basically took the place of 1 DT.
Another LB came in to replace Jaylon's normal LB duties.
They used a 3 man DL in both 3-3-5 Nickel and 3-2-6 Dime.

xwalker · Apr 22, 2020

SackMaster said:
Everything goes in cycles.

If the majority of NFL teams are running a 4-3 D, the the odds of finding multiple really good passrushers are pretty slim as the Demand is much higher than the Supply.

Dallas switched at a pretty good time back in 2005, but ultimately failed due to not getting arguably the most important position, NT. Hey, I was a fan of Ratliff, but a "passrushing NT" was never a good idea. After a while, teams learned that you can just guide the "300lbs NT" passed the play and free up blockers to get to the LBs.

IMO, you pick the better player and make a role for him. Otherwise you likely end up picking players that match a role and they end up not being good even in that "perfect" role.

Anyways, JMHO

The Wade Phillips 3-4 has more similarities to the Marinelli 4-3 than to the Bill Parcells 3-4.

xwalker · Apr 22, 2020

ColoradoCowboy said:
The beauty of the 3-4 is that the offense KNOWS that there are going to be at least four men coming on every play. But they only know 3 of them. To play a 3-4 correctly, you must have LBers that are equally capable rushing the passer and dropping into coverage, so that ANY one of them could possibly be the fourth rusher. When we last ran the 3-4, everyone and I mean EVERYONE, knew that when the chips were pushed into the middle of the table, Demarcus Ware was going to be the fourth rusher. No deception at all.

What made the Stealers so great at the 3-4 was that, on any given play even if the season were on the line, no one on the opposing offense knew for certain who the fourth rusher was going to be. They had total deception on every snap.

That is not the reason teams play the 3-4.

It is a bonus of the 3-4 that either OLB can rush or pass but in practical terms the top pass rushing OLB does indeed rush the passer on most passing plays when in the 3-4 alignment.

A majority of the pass rushes by the Strong Side OLB (The Anthony Spencer position) come when they rush 5 (i.e. Both OLBs).

Base 3-4 teams generally move to a 4 man DL in obvious passing situations.

The 3-4 is a stronger run defense alignment. It basically puts 3 DL into the space between the outside shoulders of the OTs instead of 2 DTs in a 4-3.

The 3-4 in run defense is similar to having a 5 man DL but with smallish DEs (i.e. The 3-4 OLBs are small DEs)

Steelers...

ColoradoCowboy · Apr 22, 2020

Stealers. They stole that SB from the Seahawks. And even if they didn't, which they did; I still hate the ***** Stealers.

And I didn't cover blitz packages. I only covered a "normal" 4 man rush. ANY LB in the 3-4 can be the 4th rusher, not JUST the OLBs.

To an extent, I agree that the 3-4 is stronger for run defense, but only up the middle. The 3-4 in general is vulnerable to the run outside where you have an OLB (likely in the 250 pound range) setting the edge instead of a 290 pound DE. This isn't ALWAYS true as some OLB excel against the run and some DE's don't, but it is true in general.

SSoup · Apr 23, 2020

I don't see how it would be wasting a year to switch schemes considering we're already gonna be switching schemes anyway.

Going from one 43 to another 43 defense is not the same thing as staying in the same scheme. We're switching either way. So if Nolan tells us he wants to go full 34, and if the draft falls in a way where it bolsters the idea (like if we hit a crossroads where we have to choose between a great 34 pass-rushing OLB or a lesser 43 DE, in a repeat of the Taco-Watt scenario except this time we pick the great 34 player), I think it's fine and it's not wasting a year or any hyberbolic thing like that.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

ColoradoCowboy said:
Stealers. They stole that SB from the Seahawks. And even if they didn't, which they did; I still hate the ***** Stealers.

And I didn't cover blitz packages. I only covered a "normal" 4 man rush. ANY LB in the 3-4 can be the 4th rusher, not JUST the OLBs.

To an extent, I agree that the 3-4 is stronger for run defense, but only up the middle. The 3-4 in general is vulnerable to the run outside where you have an OLB (likely in the 250 pound range) setting the edge instead of a 290 pound DE. This isn't ALWAYS true as some OLB excel against the run and some DE's don't, but it is true in general.

Nope. There is a big 3-4 DE head up on the OT.

On an outside run if they block the DE with an OG, the OG is at a leverage disadvantage.

On a wide outside run the OLB is in better position to get towards the sideline than a 4-3 DE.

3-4 inside LBs don't rush the passer any more than 4-3 LBs.

It is very rare to have 2 elite OLBs; therefore, just like with Ware, the top guy rushes the passer the majority of passing snaps. That's predictable on the majority of snaps.

Teams don't play much 3-4 in obvious passing situations or against 3 WR sets in general. They can't bring in the Nickel CB without taking a LB off the field.

The 3-4 also works better against the outside zone run which is the play that the Rams used to destroy the Cowboys in the 2018 season playoff game and then many other teams did the same thing to the Cowboys during the 2019 season.

The 3-4 is a better run defense. It is not a better pass defense.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

SSoup said:
I don't see how it would be wasting a year to switch schemes considering we're already gonna be switching schemes anyway.

Going from one 43 to another 43 defense is not the same thing as staying in the same scheme. We're switching either way. So if Nolan tells us he wants to go full 34, and if the draft falls in a way where it bolsters the idea (like if we hit a crossroads where we have to choose between a great 34 pass-rushing OLB or a lesser 43 DE, in a repeat of the Taco-Watt scenario except this time we pick the great 34 player), I think it's fine and it's not wasting a year or any hyberbolic thing like that.

They gave DLaw a mega-contract to play as a 4-3 DE.

They won't run a scheme that significantly changes his role.

They can run a hybrid which is basically a 4-3 but with one DE standing up. If you call the stand-up pass rusher an OLB, then it's a 3 man DL with the equivalent of one 3-4 type OLB, instead of the 2 pass rushing type OLBs in a 3-4.

JoeKing · Apr 23, 2020

Can we just wait and see what the defense does this season. We know the defense will be different but it's anyone's guess what that looks like. New HC, OC, and players... too much to speculate at this time.

Dak_Attack_09 · Apr 23, 2020

xwalker said:
That is not the reason teams play the 3-4.

It is a bonus of the 3-4 that either OLB can rush or pass but in practical terms the top pass rushing OLB does indeed rush the passer on most passing plays when in the 3-4 alignment.

A majority of the pass rushes by the Strong Side OLB (The Anthony Spencer position) come when they rush 5 (i.e. Both OLBs).

Base 3-4 teams generally move to a 4 man DL in obvious passing situations.

The 3-4 is a stronger run defense alignment. It basically puts 3 DL into the space between the outside shoulders of the OTs instead of 2 DTs in a 4-3.

The 3-4 in run defense is similar to having a 5 man DL but with smallish DEs (i.e. The 3-4 OLBs are small DEs)

Steelers...

It’s crazy the amount of Turnover they generated from 1st game into the SB.

Also they were top 5 in stopping the run.

4-3 is better because you have LBs that can cover and stop the run.

gjkoeppen · Apr 23, 2020

Dak_Attack_09 said:
Cowboys don’t need to waste another year trying change a whole defensive scheme to fulfill a coaches’s ego. I understand if it’s a sub package but if it’s a entire scheme change not only will the run defense be worse than last, but the whole scheme will derail this season.

Strength of this defense is the DL 4 man front and LBs ability to freely flow to cover and stop the run NOT rush the passer. Even with the addition of Aldon Smith who is older and less agile will be less effective if he is trying to play 3-4 OLB majority of the snaps. He is a perfect fit for 4-3 DE that can go play OLB in packages.

There will be an IT issue during cowboys draft and McClay will needs to make the right decision not stroke egos.

Two corrections. First I'm not aware of the Cowboys or McCarthy saying the Cowboys were switching to a 3-4 defense. I do recall Mccarthy saying several times since coming to Dallas that he will adjust his schemes to the personnel he has. It takes different type players to play the 4-3 and 3-4 defenses and the Cowboys don't have the players needed to play 3-4 as a base type defense.

Second, McClay as head of the scouting staff ONLY reports his finding on what his scouting staff has on the college players to the coaching staff, Jerry and Stephen who make the calls, not McCklay. Agreed, McClay's input is highly valued, but in the end, he doesn't make the calls.
.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

Dak_Attack_09 said:
It’s crazy the amount of Turnover they generated from 1st game into the SB.

Also they were top 5 in stopping the run.

4-3 is better because you have LBs that can cover and stop the run.

That team with the same Head Coach switched to a 3-4 base in 2019...

They didn't have as much talent in 2019 but their Head Coach was a Defensive Coordinator becoming a Head Coach and he switched to the 3-4 on run downs.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

gjkoeppen said:
Two corrections. First I'm not aware of the Cowboys or McCarthy saying the Cowboys were switching to a 3-4 defense. I do recall Mccarthy saying several times since coming to Dallas that he will adjust his schemes to the personnel he has. It takes different type players to play the 4-3 and 3-4 defenses and the Cowboys don't have the players needed to play 3-4 as a base type defense.

Second, McClay as head of the scouting staff ONLY reports his finding on what his scouting staff has on the college players to the coaching staff, Jerry and Stephen who make the calls, not McCklay. Agreed, McClay's input is highly valued, but in the end, he doesn't make the calls.
.

McCarthy has emphasized several times that they will be primarily a 4 man DL.

I'm certain that he wants to assure DLaw that his role will have minimal changes.

New DC Mike Nolan has used a hybrid 4-3/ / 3-4 in the past. He likes hybrid 4-3 DE / 3-4 OLB type players. Basically a stand-up 4-3 DE.

They can play a 3 man DL with the stand-up DE being considered an OLB. With the stand-up DE on the right side, they can keep DLaw in his same LDE spot with the same role that he had in the previous scheme.

Mike Nolan was doing many of the same things back in 2014 and earlier that Belichick has been doing the past couple of seasons.

4-3 defense > 3-4 defense

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