Chaisson or Henderson

JBell · Apr 23, 2020

Simpleton said:
Yea, I watched all those games, I also watched the Georgia game where he gave up a big PI downfield because he couldn't get his head turned.

That's just false. He turned his head around and mirrored the WR well on the play. Got a little grabby at the end, but he was right there.

And the downfield play against LSU that should've been another TD if not for the PI that went uncalled when he clearly pulled Chase's jersey/towel.

Now you're really losing credibility. That was an ELITE play by CJ Henderson that maybe only 1 or 2 other CB's in the nation could've made. A subtle tug when Ja'Maar Chase pushes off every other play and you're screaming PI lol.

And a handful of other decent sized gains against a very mediocre FSU team.

4 inconsequential catches for 30 something yards, and 1 first down when UF is up by 30 and he's playing soft off coverage.

You're reaching bro.

Simpleton said:
Oh, and if he's going to give up 50 yard TD's on rub concepts against elite WR's when in man coverage as he did against Chase, he's going to be giving up a lot of TD's that are "clearly not his fault" in the NFL.

Yeah I'm not buying the "it happened once in college to a 21 year old, it's definitely going to happen to him for the rest of his career."

Stash · Apr 23, 2020

A question for my fellow Chaisson fans.

In more and more mock drafts, the Falcons are drafting Chaisson one pick ahead of us.

So my question is this:

Would you give up next year's 3rd rounder to jump ahead of Atlanta to make sure that you got Chaisson rather than them?

I think I would, as next year's draft looks like 'Comp Pick City' for the Cowboys so I could afford to part with it.

What say you all?

BigD_95 · Apr 23, 2020

no question for me - has to be Henderson

I do not want anything to do with Chaisson

kumizi · Apr 23, 2020

I'm not so sure one of them falls to us. I think Atlanta will definitely take one of them if they stay put at 16. I would explore how much it costs to move ahead of Atlanta to perhaps pick 13. San Fran is rumored to want to trade back.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

aria said:
I think there’s a good chance at least one of these guys falls to us. Even if they are both there, or only one, which one would you rather have and why?

Personally I’m a lot more concerned with our secondary than LB’er/edge so for me it’s a no brainer and I would love to get Henderson. His biggest flaw is tackling but I think that is easily coachable.

Both are high risk players in terms of not living up to their draft status.

Henderson has elite physical ability but he has more issues than just tacking. His on-field demeanor gives me a Morris Claiborne vibe.

Chaisson has the traits to be a very good NFL player but he was still raw in many aspects of playing football. He has very good but NOT freak athletic ability. He needs a lot of coaching and needs to be in the right scheme.

With both of these players I would want to dig deep into their mental-makeup. If there is even a slight hint of being a Claiborne type of mental midget or any hint of being a Taco type that struggles to accept coaching, then I would bypass them. Unfortunately we as fans have very limited access to those details.

The opposite type player is Kinlaw. As long as the rumors about his knee(s) are false, then just line him up and let him play. He can overwhelm OLinemen with both power and quickness. His upside is through the roof and his risk of failure is low, IMO.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

Kareemovweet said:
Would have been nice to know before the draft if Gregory and or Irving were going to be re-instated or not. But even though we don't know, I still think our D-line is deeper than the secondary so I would probably go with Henderson or AJ Terrell, just not sure about them at 17. Trade back if possible and still grab one later on..

The Cowboys need to pick the best prospect and not focus on a specific position need. Focusing on need just increases the probability of failure. It's always a low probability that the best player available just happens to play a position that is the team's biggest need.

Simpleton · Apr 23, 2020

JBell said:
That's just false. He turned his head around and mirrored the WR well on the play. Got a little grabby at the end, but he was right there.

Now you're really losing credibility. That was an ELITE play by CJ Henderson that maybe only 1 or 2 other CB's in the nation could've made. A subtle tug when Ja'Maar Chase pushes off every other play and you're screaming PI lol.

4 inconsequential catches for 30 something yards, and 1 first down when UF is up by 30 and he's playing soft off coverage.

You're reaching bro.

Yeah I'm not buying the "it happened once in college to a 21 year old, it's definitely going to happen to him for the rest of his career."

Tugging on a guy's towel/jersey when they have a step on you is "elite"?

That's preposterous and the only reason it didn't get called is because the referee missed it, if the ref sees it it's a penalty every time, and more often than not they will see it. Sure, he was mostly in phase with Chase, great, but the recurring theme is that he struggles at the moment the ball arrives and gets grabby or loses balance and isn't able to make a play.

That's what happened against the no-name Georgia WR, perfectly in phase, ball arrives, stumbles a bit, doesn't make a play on the ball, pass interference.

That's what happened against the no-name Missouri WR, he's right there, loses track of the ball, overruns it a bit and it's a huge play.

Against Edwards he's right there and gets beat on a jump ball, great play by Edwards, sure, but he's going to be facing better WR's than Edwards 16 weeks out of 16 in the NFL.

Against FSU you're saying the "safety bit"?

The safety, who is only lined up about 8 yards off the LOS to begin with and not in some sort of deep/single-high type of look, took about 3 little hop steps towards the LOS off the RPO action and Henderson gave up 43 yards off the built-in play side post. That is as basic an RPO play as you're ever going to see, it's pretty much the foundation on what this zone-read stuff was built off of, with an inside zone run with a slant/post off of it where the QB can give it, keep it, or throw the post. That's elementary play design in the NFL and once he's at that level teams will do way more schematically to move defenders around and to open up throwing windows.

Is it 100% Henderson's fault? No, but he deserves plenty of blame and it's just another big play on a list that's too long for my liking at 17 given what else will be available.

And that's 5 minutes into the game.

The difference between us is that I can acknowledge why he's looked at as a top prospect, and why he may end up being elite, but I can objectively argue why I'd rather go elsewhere without making up bull**** because I'm in the tank.

You're doing everything you can to find excuses for the multiple big, downfield chunk plays that he gave up, and calling him tugging on a WR's jersey/towel "elite", which is bull****.

Simpleton · Apr 23, 2020

xwalker said:
Both are high risk players in terms of not living up to their draft status.

Henderson has elite physical ability but he has more issues than just tacking. His on-field demeanor gives me a Morris Claiborne vibe.

Chaisson has the traits to be a very good NFL player but he was still raw in many aspects of playing football. He has very good but NOT freak athletic ability. He needs a lot of coaching and needs to be in the right scheme.

With both of these players I would want to dig deep into their mental-makeup. If there is even a slight hint of being a Claiborne type of mental midget or any hint of being a Taco type that struggles to accept coaching, then I would bypass them. Unfortunately we as fans have very limited access to those details.

The opposite type player is Kinlaw. As long as the rumors about his knee(s) are false, then just line him up and let him play. He can overwhelm OLinemen with both power and quickness. His upside is through the roof and his risk of failure is low, IMO.

It's impossible for us to know what their background/character/personality is like, but what we do know for a fact is that the 18 jersey at LSU is only given out to the most respected leaders on the team, so I don't think we have much to worry about there with Chaisson.

Henderson may be great off the field and hugely competitive as well, who knows, but there isn't something tangible there for outsiders to see like with Chaisson getting the 18.

CalPolyTechnique · Apr 23, 2020

stasheroo said:
A question for my fellow Chaisson fans.

In more and more mock drafts, the Falcons are drafting Chaisson one pick ahead of us.

So my question is this:

Would you give up next year's 3rd rounder to jump ahead of Atlanta to make sure that you got Chaisson rather than them?

I think I would, as next year's draft looks like 'Comp Pick City' for the Cowboys so I could afford to part with it.

What say you all?

For next year’s 3rd?

Sure.

Simpleton · Apr 23, 2020

Wouldn't give up a 3rd to move up for Chaisson because I'd be even happier to take Kinlaw, and if both are gone I'd be fine taking Ruggs or Jeudy. In the very unlikely scenario that the draft plays out in a way where it looks like all of them will be gone either Herbert or Tua would be there and I'd almost certainly have teams looking to move up in front of Miami if they passed on a QB earlier.

Gaede · Apr 23, 2020

JBell said:
Well then you're neglecting a big part of the evaluation process. The "why" is what matters.

I don't see anyone doing the same for Terrell, Jaylon, Diggs etc.

I think great athletes like Henderson get too much benefit of the doubt when it comes to mistakes.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

Simpleton said:
It's impossible for us to know what their background/character/personality is like, but what we do know for a fact is that the 18 jersey at LSU is only given out to the most respected leaders on the team, so I don't think we have much to worry about there with Chaisson.

Henderson may be great off the field and hugely competitive as well, who knows, but there isn't something tangible there for outsiders to see like with Chaisson getting the 18.

I agree that Chaisson appears to have the right mental-makeup from what we as fans can see. He is reportedly a good character guy and he shows good effort on the field.
- My point with Chaisson is that he has tweener traits and he does not have the overwhelming physical characteristics to just line up and play without a commitment to developing his skills.
- His lack of length (6-3, with short-ish arms) is a concern. DLaw was 6-3 at a similar weight when drafted but he had significantly longer arms and big hands projecting to get much bigger.

Henderson was described in one quote as having a "quiet, egoless personality".
- That sounds good in terms of character but most of the great NFL CBs seem to be the opposite. Most have had brash personalities and overwhelming confidence.
- Lack of confidence when things didn't go well was the biggest issue with Claiborne.
- Poor tackling could also indicate a lack of Alpha Dog in Henderson.
- We also saw CB Mike Jenkins under-achieve relative to his physical ability due to having the wrong mental-makeup. He didn't take coaching very well.

JBell · Apr 23, 2020

Simpleton said:
Tugging on a guy's towel/jersey when they have a step on you is "elite"?

That's preposterous and the only reason it didn't get called is because the referee missed it, if the ref sees it it's a penalty every time, and more often than not they will see it. Sure, he was mostly in phase with Chase, great, but the recurring theme is that he struggles at the moment the ball arrives and gets grabby or loses balance and isn't able to make a play.

The best WR in college football had a step on CJ with the best QB in college football throwing to him, and CJ used his 4.3 speed to make up ground, located the football, and swatted it away. That's a CB1 play. But don't take my word for it, there a lot of smarter people than me who rave about CJ's ability on that play.

That's what happened against the no-name Georgia WR, perfectly in phase, ball arrives, stumbles a bit, doesn't make a play on the ball, pass interference.

That's what happened against the no-name Missouri WR, he's right there, loses track of the ball, overruns it a bit and it's a huge play.

That's a much more accurate analysis of what happened vs. the Georgia WR instead of your prior take that he "couldn't get his head turned around."

Show me the all-22 of the Mizzou play, because he's literally not in the screen while the ball is in the air.

Against Edwards he's right there and gets beat on a jump ball, great play by Edwards, sure, but he's going to be facing better WR's than Edwards 16 weeks out of 16 in the NFL.

Edwards made a one handed contested grab with CJ draped all over him. Let's just call it for what it is - great O against great D - instead of making another awful take that he'll be facing WR's that can do that every Sunday. CJ's 6'1" with a 37.5" vert and has plenty of wins in 50/50 situations like that.

Against FSU you're saying the "safety bit"?

The safety, who is only lined up about 8 yards off the LOS to begin with and not in some sort of deep/single-high type of look, took about 3 little hop steps towards the LOS off the RPO action and Henderson gave up 43 yards off the built-in play side post. That is as basic an RPO play as you're ever going to see, it's pretty much the foundation on what this zone-read stuff was built off of, with an inside zone run with a slant/post off of it where the QB can give it, keep it, or throw the post. That's elementary play design in the NFL and once he's at that level teams will do way more schematically to move defenders around and to open up throwing windows.

Is it 100% Henderson's fault? No, but he deserves plenty of blame and it's just another big play on a list that's too long for my liking at 17 given what else will be available.

So a play where we don't 100% know the responsibilities of each player is something that concerns you.

Additionally, the 4 other catches for 30 something yards, for 1 first down when CJ is playing a vanilla prevent D with UF up 30 concerns you.

The difference between us is that I can acknowledge why he's looked at as a top prospect, and why he may end up being elite, but I can objectively argue why I'd rather go elsewhere without making up bull**** because I'm in the tank.

You're doing everything you can to find excuses for the multiple big, downfield chunk plays that he gave up, and calling him tugging on a WR's jersey/towel "elite", which is bull****.

No, the difference between us is I accurately provided context on the big plays you alluded to. I looked at the process instead of just the results, because that's an important part of the evaluation process.

But you're trying really hard to discredit the positives, making up blatant lies, and omitting information in an attempt to make CJ Henderson look bad.

Henderson isn't a flawless player - he's a terrible tackler at times, and can give up too much cushion in off coverage. But some of your takes are flat out garbage and disingenuous. I called you out on it, and you didn't like it. Not my problem.

cowboyec · Apr 23, 2020

K'Lavon Chaisson.

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

Simpleton said:
Wouldn't give up a 3rd to move up for Chaisson because I'd be even happier to take Kinlaw, and if both are gone I'd be fine taking Ruggs or Jeudy. In the very unlikely scenario that the draft plays out in a way where it looks like all of them will be gone either Herbert or Tua would be there and I'd almost certainly have teams looking to move up in front of Miami if they passed on a QB earlier.

Here is one projection of the top 16. It's not a team specific mock but a general project of where the players will get drafted. Who do you pick this scenario if no teams are eager to trade up?
1 EDGE Chase Young
2 QB Joe Burrow
3 LB Isaiah Simmons
4 CB Jeff Okudah
5 QB Tua Tagovailoa
6 DL Derrick Brown
7 OL Tristan Wirfs
8 OL Jedrick Wills Jr.
9 DL Javon Kinlaw
10 WR CeeDee Lamb
11 OL Andrew Thomas
12 WR Jerry Jeudy
13 WR Henry Ruggs III
14 CB CJ Henderson
15 EDGE K'Lavon Chaisson
16 QB Justin Herbert

OL Mekhi Becton (falls due to flagged drug test at the combine and some teams hesitant about a player so far outside the average size of successful NFL players)

xwalker · Apr 23, 2020

Simpleton said:
Tugging on a guy's towel/jersey when they have a step on you is "elite"?

That's preposterous and the only reason it didn't get called is because the referee missed it, if the ref sees it it's a penalty every time, and more often than not they will see it. Sure, he was mostly in phase with Chase, great, but the recurring theme is that he struggles at the moment the ball arrives and gets grabby or loses balance and isn't able to make a play.

That's what happened against the no-name Georgia WR, perfectly in phase, ball arrives, stumbles a bit, doesn't make a play on the ball, pass interference.

That's what happened against the no-name Missouri WR, he's right there, loses track of the ball, overruns it a bit and it's a huge play.

Against Edwards he's right there and gets beat on a jump ball, great play by Edwards, sure, but he's going to be facing better WR's than Edwards 16 weeks out of 16 in the NFL.

Against FSU you're saying the "safety bit"?

The safety, who is only lined up about 8 yards off the LOS to begin with and not in some sort of deep/single-high type of look, took about 3 little hop steps towards the LOS off the RPO action and Henderson gave up 43 yards off the built-in play side post. That is as basic an RPO play as you're ever going to see, it's pretty much the foundation on what this zone-read stuff was built off of, with an inside zone run with a slant/post off of it where the QB can give it, keep it, or throw the post. That's elementary play design in the NFL and once he's at that level teams will do way more schematically to move defenders around and to open up throwing windows.

Is it 100% Henderson's fault? No, but he deserves plenty of blame and it's just another big play on a list that's too long for my liking at 17 given what else will be available.

And that's 5 minutes into the game.

The difference between us is that I can acknowledge why he's looked at as a top prospect, and why he may end up being elite, but I can objectively argue why I'd rather go elsewhere without making up bull**** because I'm in the tank.

You're doing everything you can to find excuses for the multiple big, downfield chunk plays that he gave up, and calling him tugging on a WR's jersey/towel "elite", which is bull****.

@JBell

The image quality in the Gif is poor.

The replay is at 11:03 in the video below:

Henderson definitely pulls the Jersey and impedes the WR.

College players get by with way more than they can get by with in the NFL.

That's a penalty in the NFL 99.99% of the time. It's only not a penalty if the WR plays for the Cowboys and the CB plays for the Packers or Steelers...

Kareemovweet · Apr 23, 2020

xwalker said:
The Cowboys need to pick the best prospect and not focus on a specific position need. Focusing on need just increases the probability of failure. It's always a low probability that the best player available just happens to play a position that is the team's biggest need.

I agree, I was just answering the question in hand...

JBell · Apr 23, 2020

xwalker said:
@JBell

The image quality in the Gif is poor.

The replay is at 11:03 in the video below:

Henderson definitely pulls the Jersey and impedes the WR.

College players get by with way more than they can get by with in the NFL.

That's a penalty in the NFL 99.99% of the time. It's only not a penalty if the WR plays for the Cowboys and the CB plays for the Packers or Steelers...

It's a subtle tug. Looks worse in slow motion and definitely not something that's obvious live.

You got 3 former NFL DB's in that thread commenting on the play and none of them brought up DPI.

Sarge · Apr 23, 2020

JoeKing said:
Henderson won't be there at 17 so I say, Chaisson.

Agree.

fivetwos · Apr 23, 2020

CalPolyTechnique said:
For next year’s 3rd?

Sure.

Are you that positive on him? I'm supposing that's who you want at 17 in that case.

Youd rather him than Kinlaw or Ruggs?

Respect your opinion. Asking. Thx.

Chaisson or Henderson

JBell

That's still my Quarterback

Stash

BigD_95

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xwalker

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Simpleton

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CalPolyTechnique

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Simpleton

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Gaede

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xwalker

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JBell

That's still my Quarterback

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xwalker

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xwalker

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Kareemovweet

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JBell

That's still my Quarterback

Sarge

Red, White and Brew...

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