Chaisson or Henderson

Flamma

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I'm not so sure one of them falls to us. I think Atlanta will definitely take one of them if they stay put at 16. I would explore how much it costs to move ahead of Atlanta to perhaps pick 13. San Fran is rumored to want to trade back.

If both don't fall to us, then there's probably a top 15 player still on the board.
 

Williamsboys

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They had replays of the first round this week of the drafts from 2014 and 2017. The 2014 draft was the Johnny Football draft where several players were selected high like Greg Robinson, Blake Bortles, Justin Gilbert, etc that never seemed to "pan out"..
In 2017 Trubisky and Solomon were also very high picks that their teams are still waiting for them to produce..
My point is you can do everything right in scouting, watching films, interviews and there will Always be some players that just cant get it done.
What you cant measure is a player's heart, drive and winning attitude. I guess that's part of what makes the draft so entertaining. Go Cowboys.
 

Simpleton

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The best WR in college football had a step on CJ with the best QB in college football throwing to him, and CJ used his 4.3 speed to make up ground, located the football, and swatted it away. That's a CB1 play. But don't take my word for it, there a lot of smarter people than me who rave about CJ's ability on that play.


That's a much more accurate analysis of what happened vs. the Georgia WR instead of your prior take that he "couldn't get his head turned around."

Show me the all-22 of the Mizzou play, because he's literally not in the screen while the ball is in the air.


Edwards made a one handed contested grab with CJ draped all over him. Let's just call it for what it is - great O against great D - instead of making another awful take that he'll be facing WR's that can do that every Sunday. CJ's 6'1" with a 37.5" vert and has plenty of wins in 50/50 situations like that.


So a play where we don't 100% know the responsibilities of each player is something that concerns you.

Additionally, the 4 other catches for 30 something yards, for 1 first down when CJ is playing a vanilla prevent D with UF up 30 concerns you.



No, the difference between us is I accurately provided context on the big plays you alluded to. I looked at the process instead of just the results, because that's an important part of the evaluation process.

But you're trying really hard to discredit the positives, making up blatant lies, and omitting information in an attempt to make CJ Henderson look bad.

Henderson isn't a flawless player - he's a terrible tackler at times, and can give up too much cushion in off coverage. But some of your takes are flat out garbage and disingenuous. I called you out on it, and you didn't like it. Not my problem.

How do you know Florida wasn't in man under/2-deep on that big play he gave up against FSU just with the safeties mugged up closer to the LOS because they're confident in their CB's handling their WR's, Henderson in particular?

You're comfortable brushing it off while I'm saying it's yet another big play given up in a pretty lengthy string of big plays given up throughout the year, which is a very valid concern for a supposed top 10-15 prospect that you seem comfortable poo-pooing based on, as you admit, facts unknown.

Who's dropping garbage takes now?

I've mentioned several times how I can easily see why teams are enamored with him, I know what his measureables are, I can easily see how effortlessly he moves around the field and stays in phase with WR's, despite all that I'm saying it's a risk I'd rather not take if Kinlaw/Chaisson are available for a variety of reasons. You on the other hand seem to think a CB tugging on a WR's jersey/towel is an "elite" play, which I guess it is if NFL referees lose their eyes between now and September, and are offended that I'm not just brushing aside all of the big plays he gave up while pretending it's "elite" when a CB tugs on a WR on a deep ball.

You were the one who initially responded to me because you didn't like how I characterized him because you want to put Henderson on a pedestal as a prospect, and as you said, that's not my problem.

At any rate, go to the 7:33 mark of this to see the All-22 of the bomb he gave up against Missouri, it's not perfect since it starts maybe half a second after the ball is snapped but it's better than nothing:



Hard to tell what it is exactly, maybe Cover-3, but at the end of the day when the ball arrives he's 1 on 1 with a no-name WR who will most likely be working in an office somewhere in 3 years and gets beaten on a 50/50 ball.
 

JBell

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How do you know Florida wasn't in man under/2-deep on that big play he gave up against FSU just with the safeties mugged up closer to the LOS because they're confident in their CB's handling their WR's, Henderson in particular?
We don't know just from watching youtube clips, which is why assigning blame, or counting it as a bad play is all speculation.

You're comfortable brushing it off while I'm saying it's yet another big play given up in a pretty lengthy string of big plays given up throughout the year, which is a very valid concern for a supposed top 10-15 prospect that you seem comfortable poo-pooing based on, as you admit, facts unknown.

Who's dropping garbage takes now?
I'm more comfortable with a CB giving up a big play in between the 20's than I am him giving up a big play for a TD. You said he gave up 5 of those last season. I showed that some of those weren't because of a lack of ability and/or were due to scheme. We can agree to disagree on that.

Here's a stat for you: He gave up one TD his entire career at UF. I like my CB's to not give up touchdowns.

I've mentioned several times how I can easily see why teams are enamored with him, I know what his measureables are, I can easily see how effortlessly he moves around the field and stays in phase with WR's, despite all that I'm saying it's a risk I'd rather not take if Kinlaw/Chaisson are available for a variety of reasons. You on the other hand seem to think a CB tugging on a WR's jersey/towel is an "elite" play, which I guess it is if NFL referees lose their eyes between now and September, and are offended that I'm not just brushing aside all of the big plays he gave up while pretending it's "elite" when a CB tugs on a WR on a deep ball.
There are smarter people than me who do this for a living who saw that particular play as a positive by CJ. A few posts back I posted a twitter clip showing a few former NFL DB's who called it a great play, not DPI. Not going to continue to argue over it. I think it's a fine play against the best WR/QB duo in the country that shows off his skillset and why he's projected to go early. You think it's a defensive pass interference. Got it.

At any rate, go to the 7:33 mark of this to see the All-22 of the bomb he gave up against Missouri, it's not perfect since it starts maybe half a second after the ball is snapped but it's better than nothing:



Hard to tell what it is exactly, maybe Cover-3, but at the end of the day when the ball arrives he's 1 on 1 with a no-name WR who will most likely be working in an office somewhere in 3 years and gets beaten on a 50/50 ball.

You: A catch was made with CJ as the closest defender. Bad play by CJ.

Me: What was the coverage? Why did the deep safety jump the crossing route which was already covered? Why did CJ throw both hands up in the air after the play was over, as if he expected help?
 

Simpleton

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Just because you can't tell exactly what coverage they're in with 100% definitiveness doesn't mean you can't draw an informed conclusion based on the context. On that bomb he gave up vs. Missouri he was lined up in an off position and at the snap he is clearly bailing and carrying that WR downfield.

There are 10 men in the frame pre-snap and within a second post-snap every defender is in the box except for the outside CB's and presumably a safety in the middle of the field, which looks alot like Cover-3. Henderson ends up carrying the WR all the way downfield and loses a 50/50 ball to a guy who is going to be managing Excel spreadsheets in 3 years.

I don't care whether or not there a single-high safety was supposed to be over the top, they weren't, Henderson knew it, or at least should have at least half way through the snap, and he lost track of the ball and wasn't able to make a play on it.

That'd be a cause for concern for most when looking at a CB expected to go top 10-15, but not for this smart guy who likes to throw out strawman bull**** characterizing my argument as "a catch was made with Henderson as the closest defender".

Being able to discern coverage is of course important when looking at DB's but at this point you're just using it as a blanket crutch to absolve Henderson of any blame. You're completely in the tank for him as evidenced by your flat out moronic argument that him pulling on Chase's jersey/towel is an "elite" play.
 

JBell

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Just because you can't tell exactly what coverage they're in with 100% definitiveness doesn't mean you can't draw an informed conclusion based on the context. On that bomb he gave up vs. Missouri he was lined up in an off position and at the snap he is clearly bailing and carrying that WR downfield.

There are 10 men in the frame pre-snap and within a second post-snap every defender is in the box except for the outside CB's and presumably a safety in the middle of the field, which looks alot like Cover-3. Henderson ends up carrying the WR all the way downfield and loses a 50/50 ball to a guy who is going to be managing Excel spreadsheets in 3 years.

I don't care whether or not there a single-high safety was supposed to be over the top, they weren't, Henderson knew it, or at least should have at least half way through the snap, and he lost track of the ball and wasn't able to make a play on it.

That'd be a cause for concern for most when looking at a CB expected to go top 10-15, but not for this smart guy who likes to throw out strawman bull**** characterizing my argument as "a catch was made with Henderson as the closest defender".
Pop quiz: What's the deep safetys responsibility in a Cover 3?

Being able to discern coverage is of course important when looking at DB's but at this point you're just using it as a blanket crutch to absolve Henderson of any blame. You're completely in the tank for him as evidenced by your flat out moronic argument that him pulling on Chase's jersey/towel is an "elite" play.
There's that brilliant analysis again. Your takeaway from that play is that CJ committed a DPI. We're done here.
 

Rogerthat12

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I think there’s a good chance at least one of these guys falls to us. Even if they are both there, or only one, which one would you rather have and why?

Personally I’m a lot more concerned with our secondary than LB’er/edge so for me it’s a no brainer and I would love to get Henderson. His biggest flaw is tackling but I think that is easily coachable.
Freddy-vs-Jason.jpg
 

Simpleton

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There's a reason I said I don't care if there was supposed to be a single-high there or not, busted coverages happen and will happen in the NFL. Henderson was playing with his back towards the LOS and carried him downfield immediately, he knew he was 1 on 1 and that the safety wasn't over the top, he was right there throughout the entire route, lost track of the ball as it arrived and got beat by a scrub.

Just like he lost track of the ball against Georgia, just like he got beat on a 50/50 by Edwards against South Carolina.

On top of that, the WR makes the catch right on the numbers, I'm sure I don't have to tell a real smart guy like you who breaks down film that in Cover-3 the outside CB's are responsible for the deep third's between the numbers and the sidelines. Maybe the safety should've been there, maybe not, but what I do know is that Henderson carried him all the way down the field with nobody else around, was 1 on 1 as much as you can imagine, and lost a 50/50 ball. In pretty much any world this is a pretty big cause for concern for a top 10-15 pick CB, especially given that it was a bit of a pattern.

And another poster literally just said that the way he pulled Chase is called every time in the NFL if the refs see it, your insistence that it wasn't is completely hilarious.

The funny thing is Henderson is the only CB aside from Okudah I wouldn't totally hate at 17 even if I greatly prefer Chaisson and Kinlaw and would rather go elsewhere, but you refuse to blame him for anything except the Auburn TD and seemingly offer up an example of him tugging on a WR downfield as an "elite play".

So sure, we're done.
 

JBell

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There's a reason I said I don't care if there was supposed to be a single-high there or not, busted coverages happen and will happen in the NFL. Henderson was playing with his back towards the LOS and carried him downfield immediately, he knew he was 1 on 1 and that the safety wasn't over the top, he was right there throughout the entire route, lost track of the ball as it arrived and got beat by a scrub.

Just like he lost track of the ball against Georgia, just like he got beat on a 50/50 by Edwards against South Carolina.

On top of that, the WR makes the catch right on the numbers, I'm sure I don't have to tell a real smart guy like you who breaks down film that in Cover-3 the outside CB's are responsible for the deep third's between the numbers and the sidelines. Maybe the safety should've been there, maybe not, but what I do know is that Henderson carried him all the way down the field with nobody else around, was 1 on 1 as much as you can imagine, and lost a 50/50 ball. In pretty much any world this is a pretty big cause for concern for a top 10-15 pick CB, especially given that it was a bit of a pattern.
His teammate blows an assignment, but CJ should've still made the play anyway?

CJ is playing with a certain leverage with the expectation that his teammates will follow through on their assignments, but if his teammates blow it, he's still responsible? That's uh, an interesting way to grade.

And another poster literally just said that the way he pulled Chase is called every time in the NFL if the refs see it, your insistence that it wasn't is completely hilarious.
And three former NFL DB's said it wasn't. But clearly they don't know the game as well you.

The funny thing is Henderson is the only CB aside from Okudah I wouldn't totally hate at 17 even if I greatly prefer Chaisson and Kinlaw and would rather go elsewhere, but you refuse to blame him for anything except the Auburn TD and seemingly offer up an example of him tugging on a WR downfield as an "elite play".

So sure, we're done.
I said he's not a perfect prospect. Any amateur scout with internet access can see he's a terrible tackler at times and gives up easy completions in off coverage.

You're getting wound up because I pointed out that those 5 big plays were not all his fault. But CJ should win every 50/50 ball, should never get picked, should never put his hands on a WR, and should make plays on the ball even when his teammates blow coverages. And then maybe, just maybe he'll be worth the #17 pick.
 

xwalker

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It's a subtle tug. Looks worse in slow motion and definitely not something that's obvious live.

You got 3 former NFL DB's in that thread commenting on the play and none of them brought up DPI.


It was not subtle. Those Gifs are just too poor of quality.

They would have had to go find the play elsewhere to accurately comment on it. Those Gifs are near worthless.

I've seen interviews with Antonio Cromartie. In his mind no DB has ever committed PI and all flags on DBs are bogus.

It the question is specific to that game and if he should have been flagged, that's a different question than how it projects to the NFL.
- College refs tend to "let em play" as compared to the NFL.

Again, if that play was in the NFL it would be a penalty. NFL refs call PI on plays that are far less obvious than that one.
f
 

Outlaw Heroes

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It was not subtle. Those Gifs are just too poor of quality.

They would have had to go find the play elsewhere to accurately comment on it. Those Gifs are near worthless.

I've seen interviews with Antonio Cromartie. In his mind no DB has ever committed PI and all flags on DBs are bogus.

It the question is specific to that game and if he should have been flagged, that's a different question than how it projects to the NFL.
- College refs tend to "let em play" as compared to the NFL.

Again, if that play was in the NFL it would be a penalty. NFL refs call PI on plays that are far less obvious than that one.
f

It's something that a ref could easily miss. Or even forgive, given that it didn't really impede Chase's ability to make a play on the ball. You certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were called, though you'd be a bit disappointed (and maybe even argue was a bad call) if you were cheering on the D. On the whole, I think it was a nice bit of coverage on one of the best receivers in college football.
 

xwalker

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It's something that a ref could easily miss. Or even forgive, given that it didn't really impede Chase's ability to make a play on the ball. You certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were called, though you'd be a bit disappointed (and maybe even argue was a bad call) if you were cheering on the D. On the whole, I think it was a nice bit of coverage on one of the best receivers in college football.

He didn't just pull it and let go. He kept pulling it and definitely impeded the WRs progress.

That gets a flag every time in the NFL unless the refs are just out of position and can't see it clearly (i.e. If a ref in in front of the WR he might not see it clearly).
 
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