What is more important, Team or QB?

kskboys · May 5, 2020

aikemirv said:
I was comparing Marino to Mahommes.

I thought we were leaving coaching out of it because NE has the best coach and the best QB in history! That said, I think Brady was subject to the team around him or he would have even more!

P Manning, Brees, Rodgers - put them on those NE teams - they still win!

Foles, Flacco, Eli, all immobile. Won some super bowls, they did.

Mobility is great in a QB, but is far far from the most important factor.

If this mobility thing is so important, than why do pocket QB's keep winning the super bowl? Mahomes, BTW is a pocket QB. He does not make people around him better due to his mobility. Your thinking is off on this one.

America's Cowboy · May 5, 2020

Good QBs surrounded by good teams.

Easy.

Diehardblues · May 5, 2020

sean10mm said:
I need to dig up the source, but somebody crunched the numbers and realized that almost every QB in NFL history had a losing record when their defense gave up more points than the average for that year. It was completely nuts how bad almost every QB ever (including HOFers) are at winning when their D was just below average.

2010 Packers had the #2 scoring defense in football
2005 Steelers were #3, 2008 Steelers were #1
2013 Seahawks were #1
2015 Broncos were #4

It's almost like there's some kind of pattern emerging here.

Brady's WORST D he won a title with was #8 in points allowed in 2014. And that was skewed by the D stinking the joint up in 2 of their first 4 games before getting on track.

Yea in winning it all needed a good defense. But these QB had their team contending every year without these good defenses.

And when they are surrounded with more help won it all. But what’s missed in this is that having a top QB you’re always basically in it. That’s the difference.

Dak is a good enough QB to win it but he needs more supporting cast than these great QB’s. And with the amount of Cap we have invested in offense it’s going to be difficult to build a top defense so this offense and QB will need to carry us.

Diehardblues · May 5, 2020

CowboyRoy said:
That 2016 team had a good enough offense to carry us and they did. But we didn't have the coaching. Probably would have gotten beat eventually though as we needed a better defense.

I’d agree with that defense we aren’t going very much further. But our offense had an opportunity to seal the game avoiding that last sequence placing too much pressure on our defense to pull it out. That’s what I mean by offense carrying us.

Yes it carried us to the playoffs but should have carried us to the championship game. It started off slow like it often does and didn’t make the big play in Redzone to close out the game. That’s how I saw it. When we left the balance in Rodgers hands against our defense we were in trouble.

Dak and our star studded offense has to dominate as much against the better teams to be considered great. And if they do will take us to the next level . Our offense has to help our defense.

As great as our offense looked in our wins against mostly lesser opponents putting up 35 points a game it looked disabled in our losses averaging only 15 points a game. We can’t have such a disparity in performance and production and expect greater results.

The Fonz · May 5, 2020

Great quarterback can hide the team's deficiencies.but its hard for the team to elevate the quarterback' skills

CowboyRoy · May 6, 2020

Diehardblues said:
I’d agree with that defense we aren’t going very much further. But our offense had an opportunity to seal the game avoiding that last sequence placing too much pressure on our defense to pull it out. That’s what I mean by offense carrying us.

Yes it carried us to the playoffs but should have carried us to the championship game. It started off slow like it often does and didn’t make the big play in Redzone to close out the game. That’s how I saw it. When we left the balance in Rodgers hands against our defense we were in trouble.

Dak and our star studded offense has to dominate as much against the better teams to be considered great. And if they do will take us to the next level . Our offense has to help our defense.

As great as our offense looked in our wins against mostly lesser opponents putting up 35 points a game it looked disabled in our losses averaging only 15 points a game. We can’t have such a disparity in performance and production and expect greater results.

No pal, you have it the opposite. Our defense needs to help out our offense, which it did little of last year.

A little better field position and a few scores on defense and this team averages over 30 points a game without and improvement from the offense.

Diehardblues · May 6, 2020

CowboyRoy said:
No pal, you have it the opposite. Our defense needs to help out our offense, which it did little of last year.

A little better field position and a few scores on defense and this team averages over 30 points a game without and improvement from the offense.

I understand it needs to but we can’t expect it to with most of our investment in talent and Cap on offense.

Remember how much better our defense looks when we dominate on the ground controlling time of possession keeping our defense off the field. That’s masking our weaknesses.

We are offensively heavy on talent and Cap. If it doesn’t dominate and lead the way we are in trouble.

Diehardblues · May 6, 2020

Normally if you have an Elite QB in Cap money you don’t need as much invested in the OL, RB and WR because the QB can help elevate supporting cast.

Then you can invest in the defense.

But if you need so much invested in supporting cast to elevate your QB, you can’t pay him Elite money too or you don’t have enough left to invest in defense.

And why it leaves us with this QB and talent on offense will have to carry us without a strong defense.

Diehardblues · May 6, 2020

Look at what the Packers did to elevate Rodgers last year. They didn’t bring in top WR or RB. They beefed up their defense. Because with an Elite QB you can get by without the best RB, OL and receivers. Patriots on the most part did the same thing over the years with Brady. He rarely had the top receivers or RB.

Something has to give with Cap. If you pay your QB elite money and he’s not elite there’s a trickle down effect. There’s going to be collateral damage . In our case it’s going to be our defense.

We’ve made the choice to invest heavily in our offense. It will have to carry us without a good defense. If it doesn't then we have made some grave errors in our judgement of investment and evaluation of talent.

BigD_95 · May 6, 2020

Diehardblues said:
Look at what the Packers did to elevate Rodgers last year. They didn’t bring in top WR or RB. They beefed up their defense. Because with an Elite QB you can get by without the best RB, OL and receivers. Patriots on the most part did the same thing over the years with Brady. He rarely had the top receivers or RB.

Something has to give with Cap. If you pay your QB elite money and he’s not elite there’s a trickle down effect. There’s going to be collateral damage . In our case it’s going to be our defense.

We’ve made the choice to invest heavily in our offense. It will have to carry us without a good defense. If it doesn't then we have made some grave errors in our judgement of investment and evaluation of talent.

You have to draft well on defense. Get cheap good players in their rookie deals then when their contracts come up (B. Jones) you have to watch them walk out the door. You just have to hope you can replace them (Diggs) or you are in trouble.

But you also have to be smart and not over pay also ( DLaw).

I think we can win keeping a top offense and mid range free agents on D then keep drafting well.

Diehardblues · May 6, 2020

BigD_95 said:
You have to draft well on defense. Get cheap good players in their rookie deals then when their contracts come up (B. Jones) you have to watch them walk out the door. You just have to hope you can replace them (Diggs) or you are in trouble.

But you also have to be smart and not over pay also ( DLaw).

I think we can win keeping a top offense and mid range free agents on D then keep drafting well.

Yep

How critical was missing on Taco in 2017 and Hill in 2019 cost us? Image if our top 2 picks from those drafts were starting on defense and making an impact.

And why I would have used our top pick on defense this year. Lamb is a good pick , very talented but our offense already so heavily invested. Again, why it will have to carry us.

BigD_95 · May 6, 2020

Diehardblues said:
Yep

How critical was missing on Taco in 2017 and Hill in 2019 cost us? Image if our top 2 picks from those drafts were starting on defense and making an impact.

And why I would have used our top pick on defense this year. Lamb is a good pick , very talented but our offense already so heavily invested. Again, why it will have to carry us.

completely agree on Taco & Hill. That hurt

I wouldn't have been able to not draft Lamb either though. Too much talent to pass on - look at it like this. If he becomes a massive player Cowboys can walk away from Coop in 2 years and save on his money. Then use that elsewhere.

Diehardblues · May 6, 2020

BigD_95 said:
completely agree on Taco & Hill. That hurt

I wouldn't have been able to not draft Lamb either though. Too much talent to pass on - look at it like this. If he becomes a massive player Cowboys can walk away from Coop in 2 years and save on his money. Then use that elsewhere.

Understood. In the meantime we are even heavier offensively.

If our QB is as talented as our other Elite talents we have on offense we are paying top money it should be unstoppable against everyone in the league, not just the average to below average teams.

CowboyRoy · May 6, 2020

Diehardblues said:
I understand it needs to but we can’t expect it to with most of our investment in talent and Cap on offense.

Remember how much better our defense looks when we dominate on the ground controlling time of possession keeping our defense off the field. That’s masking our weaknesses.

We are offensively heavy on talent and Cap. If it doesn’t dominate and lead the way we are in trouble.

Nope, the focus has been on the defense this offseason. Until the defense becomes a good unit we cant expect anything but inconsistent results. Asking the Offense to win every game and be great against every defense is too much. Plenty of assets have been used on the defense, they have just been bad picks.

Taco, Hill, ect….ect….

Diehardblues · May 6, 2020

CowboyRoy said:
Nope, the focus has been on the defense this offseason. Until the defense becomes a good unit we cant expect anything but inconsistent results. Asking the Offense to win every game and be great against every defense is too much. Plenty of assets have been used on the defense, they have just been bad picks.

Taco, Hill, ect….ect….

Yep and why my expectations are low.

Assetts have been used per say on defense but our financial investment is mostly on offense.

And why if our offense can’t carry us we are in trouble.

starcity214 · May 6, 2020

BourbonBalz said:
Yep. Equal to or considerably better than Brady in pretty much every single category.

Tom Brady won a SB.

Also, compare Tom Brady's weapons during that span to Dak Prescott's and take a look at the stats for both players again and tell me they're both on the same level..

We saw how Dak looked without Zeke.

We saw how Dak looked without Amari..

We also saw how Brady looked with Moss..

But I guess they're both HOF QBs right?

Not to mention, the league was a different beast back then .. but whatever.

Dak is better than Brady.

BourbonBalz · May 6, 2020

starcity214 said:
Tom Brady won a SB.

Also, compare Tom Brady's weapons during that span to Dak Prescott's and take a look at the stats for both players again and tell me they're both on the same level..

We saw how Dak looked without Zeke.

We saw how Dak looked without Amari..

We also saw how Brady looked with Moss..

But I guess they're both HOF QBs right?

Not to mention, the league was a different beast back then .. but whatever.

Dak is better than Brady.

Apparently you have reading comprehension issues. No one has ever said Dak is better than Brady. What was said, and 100% correctly I might add, was that Dak put up better numbers in his first four years than Brady did in his first four. That cannot be disputed. Brady had a better team around him, especially on defense. And don’t even get me started on the coaching differences. Dak has only had Cooper for a year and a half. The year and a half before that, his receivers were below average. Witten was a shell of himself.

Yes the game has changed, but not that much during the four years we’re talking about. Brady didn’t play in the 79’s or 80’s, so don’t act like we’re talking about totally different eras. Teams were throwing the ball all over the field during the early 2000’s. Manning, Farve, Brees, etc. say hello!

Cmac · May 6, 2020

Last year, it was Team or RB.

CowboyRoy · May 6, 2020

Diehardblues said:
Yep and why my expectations are low.

Assetts have been used per say on defense but our financial investment is mostly on offense.

And why if our offense can’t carry us we are in trouble.

Sorry buddy, but you remain one of the worst predictors/evaluators of talent/coaching/team.

This team is primed and the arrow is heading up:

-MM is now the coach and Marinelli and crew are gone. He is in full control of this team
-Moore is now unleashed and coached up by a REAL offensive mind
-Weaknesses on defense have been addressed for the most part. DT is now a strength and the secondary is deeper and more play makers.
-These DT's will keep lineman off our linebackers
-Dak is entering his prime coming off his best season
-Pollard should be more in the mix offensively as should Jarwin
-Lamb replaces Cobb and I don't think we can underestimate that affect
-We have a legitimate backup QB

All these things are huge reasons to think the team will be much improved.

But yet you are...……………….."down on the team".

Why because your pathetic hero Garrett is gone? LOL

Getting on the wrong side of the argument again I see.

Already hoping for MM to fail so you can prop up your hero Garrett. Pathetic and sad. Too bad you aren't going to enjoy this run.

tyke1doe · May 6, 2020

You need a team to get to the Super Bowl.
You need a franchise quarterback on your team to get to multiple Super Bowls. (See Bart Starr, Bob Griese, Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Jim Kelly, Troy Aikman, John Elway, Brett Favre, Ben Rothlisberger, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady for examples.)

What is more important, Team or QB?

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