What exactly does "make the players around you better" mean?

kskboys · May 14, 2020

Idgit said:
It doesn’t mean anything more than “play effective QB football”. But it’s an easy thing to say and a hard thing to backup, which makes it popular for tv shows who want to tease the Cowboys to get people to watch.

It's easy to backup in extreme cases such as Brady/PManning/Montana.

kskboys · May 14, 2020

Clove said:
I don't think players make players better at all. I think coaches make players better and scheme could make players better, but players are already good at what they do, they just need the right mix of scheme, coaching, and talent around them. Steve Kerr could always hit a knock down shot, but he couldn't do it as much when he didn't have Jordan over there sucking up all the attention.

Terrence Williams couldn't do squat when he didn't have Dez Bryant over there sucking up all the attention. Sometimes, players need other players and better scheme to show off what they can do. And by the way, Williams never won anything but regular season games, so I wouldn't necessarily call Williams a great player, he was what most receivers are. If he elevated the team to Super bowls, then I could sing his praises.

If a QB can't throw, your receiver will look pedestrian. When he's changed out for a QB that can throw, he'll look like what he's supposed to look like. But he also needs the right scheme, because if the scheme does not direct the QB to throw it to him, or he's running routes not conducive to his talents, he still won't succeed. Lot's of variables go into the success of a player, and not just saying, this player made this player look good. And this is coming from an ex football player, and not some guy sitting on his couch being a paper coach/owner/gm and scout.

So this players making other players great is a crock. You're either good or you're not. But you have to give players a true chance to prove it.

The bolded is a completely opposite statement of your first sentence. Complete contradiction.

DFWJC · May 14, 2020

Irvin88_4life said:
He was on the team and played in 2018...... that's Daks 3rd year

We have our Williams mixed up.
I was referring to Roy’

Irvin88_4life · May 15, 2020

DFWJC said:
We have our Williams mixed up.
I was referring to Roy’

I didn't see anybody taking about Roy Williams, my mistake if that's who you meant but Roy was gone before Romo finished up in the league. Roy only played 1 year with Dez and he was drafted in 2010

Ranching · May 15, 2020

rocyaice said:
I've heard this used to describe guys like Tom Brady and Russell Wilson. But how exactly do you gauge someone making another player better? Did Joe Montana make Jerry Rice better? Did Troy make Michael Irvin better? I've always had a problem grasping this. Because if I go by the stats...........

In 14 games in 2016 Amari Cooper in 14 games had 48 receptions on 96 attempts for 680 yards while averaging 14.2 yards a catch.......

In 2017 prior to getting to Dallas in 6 games he had 22 catches on 31 targets for 280 yards at 12.7 yards a catch and a touchdown. Safe to say he was going to have a even worse year.

Comes to Dallas and in 9 games has 53 catches on 76 targets at 13.7 yards a catch and 6 Touchdowns.

Season after has 79 catches on 119 targets at 15.1 yards a catch for 8 touchdowns.

On to Randall Cobb.

He's had some injuries recently...miraculously got healthy with Dallas somehow.

Maybe a bit unfair to judge him on his 2018 season with Aaron Rodgers so let's go a year prior to 2017 where he played 15 games.

66 catches on 91 targets for 653 yards on a average of 9.9 yards a catch for 4 touchdowns.

In 2019 with Dallas he had 55 catches for 828 yards on 15.1 yards a catch and 3 touchdowns.....all while being the 3rd best receiver on the team.

Anyone want to help me understand what "makes his receivers better" mean?

If you don't know what that means, you don't know sports.

Typhus · May 15, 2020

rocyaice said:
Maybe I should clarify I should've asked in the NFL. Because I understand how Jordan did it. A great example. And I feel its much easier to do on a 12 man team in the NBA then it is a 53 man team.

Ok so this is my argument there......Laurent Robinson was not a bum prior to getting to Dallas. He suffered injuries prior to getting to Dallas.

And if we use this argument then what argument do we use for Roy Williams? He was a former top 10 pick in the draft. He got to Dallas and sucked. Is Romo to blame for that? He deserves praise for Robinson but deserves to be knocked for Roy Williams?

I just wonder how far does this stretch? Its like we pick and chose when we want to give a wide receiver credit for his contributions.

To me its simple, its just natural chemistry.

Every once in a great while natural chemistry meets, like Jerry Rice and Joe Montana, Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison, Aikman and Irvin, Bradshaw and Swann
Now lets fast track to todays game and great chemistry, whats most relevant right now...

Drew Brees and Michael Thomas

Aaron Rodgers and Davante Adams

Patrick Mahomes and Tyreek Hill

Matt Ryan and Julio Jones

Russell Wilson and DK MetCalf

I dont care what side of the Dak love or hate anyone is standing,, it cant be denied by anyone claiming to be a Cowboys fan that we all recogniozed the instant connection between Dak and Coop, it was like a spark was lit.... and that's the point Im trying to make, is that sometimes its just simple chemistry.
Coop immediately elevated Daks game, and Dak Immediately elevated Coops game.. bingo.. instant connection.

If a 100 million dollar contract means hitting on that rare chemistry connection, than you pay it all day long, every day when that presents its rare self.

DFWJC · May 15, 2020

Irvin88_4life said:
I didn't see anybody taking about Roy Williams, my mistake if that's who you meant but Roy was gone before Romo finished up in the league. Roy only played 1 year with Dez and he was drafted in 2010

Yeah, I was discussing Roy earlier with a different poster. He said that was a guy Romo did not help (players lifting up others was this threads topic)
He was right, For whatever reason
It happens

sean10mm · May 15, 2020

Has a guy ever been good but NOT made the players around them better?

Has a guy ever sucked but somehow DID make the players around them better?

I'm pretty sure it's just a pretentious way of saying a guy is a good player.

Like not even peak Tom Brady could make Chad Jackson or Josh Boyce a real NFL receiver.

SteveTheCowboy · May 15, 2020

JoeKing said:
Nope, not at all. You're totally blowing out of proportion what I said. You are wasting your time getting your panties in a wad. You don't know me. You haven't even taken the time to get to know me. We are perfect strangers, so you are in no position to go on the rant you just did after only reading a few words by me. Step down from your soapbox. I'm not disputing anything you just said, I have no issue with you. The next time you see someone has a different opinion than yours, how about not blowing-up on them as you just did to me. I welcome a civil discussion. I don't appreciate the mugging you just attempted. We can talk but don't lecture. Your tone matters to me.

I didn't think I was THAT offensive...maybe it's not me that should settle down a little. It would seem to me you're little defensive about your opinion.

I perhaps did give you an underhanded insult...but not terribly offensive...more in a kidding way, while at the very same time insulting myself! I have freely admitted I am most certainly not any kind of expert. I will try to be more careful with my "tone" ...although I am unsure how that works when reading words on a computer screen!

Although I do think people should be held accountable for their statements....I'll try to be more considerate.

It is interesting to me you choose to address that tiny little in-jest insult instead of the topic at hand,....while accusing me of cherry picking a statement. And a rant as well. Just interesting.

Okay....be that as it may....

I of course read all of your comment. And you DID in fact essentially boil down the somewhat complicated mechanix of the NFL passing game to "but the receiver just has to catch the ball". "hitting a target"....is most certainly just a small part of making the ball as catch-able as possible while giving the receiver safety and YAC.

This is acase that the QB's talent can most assuredly make the receivers better!

And of course the corollary is also true...receivers talent CAN add to the QB's stats. But it starts with the QB and the great majority of it orchestrated by him.

js66 · May 15, 2020

It's usually glaringly obvious when a player makes those around him better.

Tom Brady is an obvious example... there may be another one or two WR's but without Randy Moss he's gone most of his career just kind of creating his #1 WR. Most of the guys that are reception leaders for the Patriots would not be #1 WR's anywhere else. In some cases maybe not even #2 WR's. They gave Tom guys most thought to be average to below average WR's.... Deon Branch, Wes Welker, Amendola, Edelman. Even Gronk I don't think would be Gronk without Brady. Brady makes these guys look like first rounders.

I'm a hockey fan as well and I like the Pittsburgh Penguins. My favorite player was Mario Lemieux. He's one of the greatest players in history and played on the same line as a guy named Kevin Stevens. Stevens was maybe an average or slightly above player. Stevens scored 50 goals one year which is quite an accomplishment, hall of fame player type season. They asked Stevens about his amazing season and his reply was something like.... A fire hydrant could score 50 goals on a line with Mario Lemieux....

Great talent makes things easier for teammates, helping them succeed and perform better than they could in an average situation. They need little to no help to perform at the highest level and elevate the talent and sometimes the stats of those around them.

TheMarathonContinues · May 15, 2020

Ranching said:
If you don't know what that means, you don't know sports.

Ok. Thanks for your input.

TheMarathonContinues · May 15, 2020

Typhus said:
To me its simple, its just natural chemistry.

Every once in a great while natural chemistry meets, like Jerry Rice and Joe Montana, Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison, Aikman and Irvin, Bradshaw and Swann
Now lets fast track to todays game and great chemistry, whats most relevant right now...

Drew Brees and Michael Thomas

Aaron Rodgers and Davante Adams

Patrick Mahomes and Tyreek Hill

Matt Ryan and Julio Jones

Russell Wilson and DK MetCalf

I dont care what side of the Dak love or hate anyone is standing,, it cant be denied by anyone claiming to be a Cowboys fan that we all recogniozed the instant connection between Dak and Coop, it was like a spark was lit.... and that's the point Im trying to make, is that sometimes its just simple chemistry.
Coop immediately elevated Daks game, and Dak Immediately elevated Coops game.. bingo.. instant connection.

If a 100 million dollar contract means hitting on that rare chemistry connection, than you pay it all day long, every day when that presents its rare self.

Great explanation. Probably the best I've seen posted yet. I think what it comes down to as you explained is that both a quarterback and a receiver can make each other better.

Ranching · May 15, 2020

rocyaice said:
Ok. Thanks for your input.

You're welcome.

xwalker · May 15, 2020

rocyaice said:
I've heard this used to describe guys like Tom Brady and Russell Wilson. But how exactly do you gauge someone making another player better? Did Joe Montana make Jerry Rice better? Did Troy make Michael Irvin better? I've always had a problem grasping this. Because if I go by the stats...........

In 14 games in 2016 Amari Cooper in 14 games had 48 receptions on 96 attempts for 680 yards while averaging 14.2 yards a catch.......

In 2017 prior to getting to Dallas in 6 games he had 22 catches on 31 targets for 280 yards at 12.7 yards a catch and a touchdown. Safe to say he was going to have a even worse year.

Comes to Dallas and in 9 games has 53 catches on 76 targets at 13.7 yards a catch and 6 Touchdowns.

Season after has 79 catches on 119 targets at 15.1 yards a catch for 8 touchdowns.

On to Randall Cobb.

He's had some injuries recently...miraculously got healthy with Dallas somehow.

Maybe a bit unfair to judge him on his 2018 season with Aaron Rodgers so let's go a year prior to 2017 where he played 15 games.

66 catches on 91 targets for 653 yards on a average of 9.9 yards a catch for 4 touchdowns.

In 2019 with Dallas he had 55 catches for 828 yards on 15.1 yards a catch and 3 touchdowns.....all while being the 3rd best receiver on the team.

Anyone want to help me understand what "makes his receivers better" mean?

Amari Cooper definitely improved with Dak as the QB.

Romo "made" Dez. Very very few other QBs would have had the patience to run about wait for Dez to get open and buying time until he could actually figure out what route Dez as going to run. No possibility that Aikman or Brady would ha have tolerated Dez.

Aikman - Irvin probably "made" each other. They were the prefect pairing of styles. Irvin could have ended up as an average WR with the wrong QB. Aikman would have melted down with poor route running WRs like Dez.

Montana - Rice were also a good pair; although, I always felt that Jerry Rice took Montana from good to one of the greatest because of all the short passes that Rice turned into huge gains.

Dak did manage to make it work in 2016 with Dez but it was very obvious that he didn't like it and that the coaches forced him to make Dez the primary and forced him to wait longer on Dez that he waited on other WRs.

JoeKing · May 15, 2020

Cowboy Lover said:
I didn't think I was THAT offensive...maybe it's not me that should settle down a little. It would seem to me you're little defensive about your opinion.

I perhaps did give you an underhanded insult...but not terribly offensive...more in a kidding way, while at the very same time insulting myself! I have freely admitted I am most certainly not any kind of expert. I will try to be more careful with my "tone" ...although I am unsure how that works when reading words on a computer screen!

Although I do think people should be held accountable for their statements....I'll try to be more considerate.

It is interesting to me you choose to address that tiny little in-jest insult instead of the topic at hand,....while accusing me of cherry picking a statement. And a rant as well. Just interesting.

Okay....be that as it may....

I of course read all of your comment. And you DID in fact essentially boil down the somewhat complicated mechanix of the NFL passing game to "but the receiver just has to catch the ball". "hitting a target"....is most certainly just a small part of making the ball as catch-able as possible while giving the receiver safety and YAC.

This is acase that the QB's talent can most assuredly make the receivers better!

And of course the corollary is also true...receivers talent CAN add to the QB's stats. But it starts with the QB and the great majority of it orchestrated by him.

Now that we are back into the civilized realm of conversation. My comment about the passing game had more to do about the QB than the WR. The point I was making was the QB can do a plethora of things right but he still depends on the WR to catch the ball or none of what he did right amounts to a hill of beans.

SteveTheCowboy · May 15, 2020

JoeKing said:
Now that we are back into the civilized realm of conversation. My comment about the passing game had more to do about the QB than the WR. The point I was making was the QB can do a plethora of things right but he still depends on the WR to catch the ball or none of what he did right amounts to a hill of beans.

Okay..the obviousness of that made me mistake your point. My apologies.

CowboysFaninHouston · May 15, 2020

Flamma said:
I don't know if a QB can make a WR better, but he can certainly bring out the talent that they have. But I think in some cases along the DL it can happen. Too tall Jones said that Harvey Martin used to make him bring his A game in every week.

that's the key.....its what you can do when given the talent that surronds you....are you able to take advantage of them, produce with them....no QB is going to lift an average WR and make them great, except maybe 1 or 2 in the past 20 years. even the great Brady had his best seasons with Gronk, Edleman and Moss.....all proved they were good when they played without brady.

KJJ · May 15, 2020

If players believe in their QB it will raise their level of play. If you believe that if you do your part your QB will succeed it will make you play harder and better. Roger Staubach always elevated the play of the players around him because they believed in him. A QB is the only player who can elevate the play of an entire team. Their play has a huge impact in the outcome of games. Joe Montana did make Jerry Rice better because he was able to get him the ball. Most Hall of Fame receivers had a Hall of Fame QB throwing to them. A great QB can throw a receiver open. All receivers are dependent on the play of their QB.

InTheZone · May 15, 2020

Season stats tell a false narrative since many happen in the 4th when Dak was laying duds for 3 quarters.

I assume this example is common sense so forgive me if you already knew..

Example: Dallas calls a RPO, ball is snapped, every defender is eyeballing and crashing Zeke while Dak decides to hand it off any way because Dak already made up his mind before he realized he had a chance to keep it himself. Dak can clearly see the outside contain not even trying to stop him, but hands it off anyway.

Things like this kill momentum, kill trust, and kill potential.

This example is good enough?

bsbellomy · May 15, 2020

rocyaice said:
I've heard this used to describe guys like Tom Brady and Russell Wilson. But how exactly do you gauge someone making another player better? Did Joe Montana make Jerry Rice better? Did Troy make Michael Irvin better? I've always had a problem grasping this. Because if I go by the stats...........

In 14 games in 2016 Amari Cooper in 14 games had 48 receptions on 96 attempts for 680 yards while averaging 14.2 yards a catch.......

In 2017 prior to getting to Dallas in 6 games he had 22 catches on 31 targets for 280 yards at 12.7 yards a catch and a touchdown. Safe to say he was going to have a even worse year.

Comes to Dallas and in 9 games has 53 catches on 76 targets at 13.7 yards a catch and 6 Touchdowns.

Season after has 79 catches on 119 targets at 15.1 yards a catch for 8 touchdowns.

On to Randall Cobb.

He's had some injuries recently...miraculously got healthy with Dallas somehow.

Maybe a bit unfair to judge him on his 2018 season with Aaron Rodgers so let's go a year prior to 2017 where he played 15 games.

66 catches on 91 targets for 653 yards on a average of 9.9 yards a catch for 4 touchdowns.

In 2019 with Dallas he had 55 catches for 828 yards on 15.1 yards a catch and 3 touchdowns.....all while being the 3rd best receiver on the team.

Anyone want to help me understand what "makes his receivers better" mean?

See Tony Romo and Laurent Robinson.

What exactly does "make the players around you better" mean?

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