Arguments against Dak's demands, and analysis of the payment to QB

CowboyoWales

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Wentz got the Eagles the division before he went down. Foles just had to win just one more game for the number one seed..all against mediocre to bad teams. So to say he had nothing to do with it is being intellectually dishonest at a bare minimum.

Wentz also had the highest QB Rating in 2017 (by a fair margin).

Its the old combination of being paid for what you've achieved and what you could achieve.
 

CowboyoWales

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Good point! or vice versa, what the Cowboys are asking that Dak isn't willing to give, especially when you consider money he ALREADY has on the table.

Yep, it's more likely to be a question of the amount of years....JJ wanting longer and Dak wanting to feed off Mahomes' next mammoth contract.

What makes it difficult for JJ is that we've got money tied up in the next two years and so need Dak to take a longer backloaded contract.
 

fivetwos

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Don't forget that it's Little Enos' M.O. as well. He talks tough, negotiates poorly, and ends up paying the player what they wanted anyway. Then comes the spin about what a great deal it is for the Cowboys. Lawrence got his, Zeke got his, Cooper got his, and Dak will get his. Our 'lead negotiator' isn't good at his job. But his last name is Jones.
I'm somewhat confused at how they talk Prescott up in the media, say they are committed to him and talk about what a great QB he is, then get to the bargaining table and ask him to take a discount.

Then proclaim they are fully committed to him, and expect him to play for less than he probably ought to (don't confuse that with the word "deserve" or anything similar).

What's wrong with..."we've made several offers that we consider more than fair, and would make him the highest paid player in the history of the NFL. We are prepared to move on without him if need be."....??

Just another example of why Jerry cant wear all the hats he thinks he can effectively. He wants players to be his friends. Every organization needs a bad guy. Hence the dysfunction and why no other pro sports team is run that way. A quarter century of futility isnt proof enough.

Jerry is one of the most successful businessmen in this country, and I refuse to believe he is unaware of this. He is.

Even worse, he just refuses to do anything about it.
 

Adreme

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And you base this on what?

So in reading your post, your idea is to what, just pay anything a given player demands? This is all opinion on your part. I don't buy into the purgatory angle TBH. We are a team who has drafted Starting QBs in the 10th Rd, the 3rd Rd (Twice), the 4th Rd and even a UFA. If you look at our history, only Troy was a 1st round pick. We are the last team who should view the QB position in this manner IMO.

Don't agree at all...

I base this on the best numbers of Dalton's career not even being close to what Dak has done in multiple years. Dak's worst year would be his 2nd or 3rd best and its not like the Bengals did not have playmakers. AJ Green is a tier 1 WR who would just carry games on his own. Generally they have had better number 2 and number 3 WRs and while not amazing their offensive line was okay and they had better receiving RBs and despite all that Dalton could help but be the weak link. If Dalton is starting for a team, the ceiling for that team is to make the playoffs.

Also its opinion based on history. Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round but if you try to find a franchise QB in the 6th round today it might take you 15-20 attempts. The history says 2/3 first round QBs are busts and it gets much worse much faster as it goes it. Their is no magic wand that people can use to just know when a QB will be a star or a bust. What they can know is who is most likely to succeed and those guys are drafted in the top 50 and even then its closer to 50-50 (slightly lower).

Now maybe the Cowboys can get lucky, but at the end of the day that is what you are hoping they do. You are hoping they get lucky or they spend 5-7 years on average rolling the dice over and over.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I base this on the best numbers of Dalton's career not even being close to what Dak has done in multiple years. Dak's worst year would be his 2nd or 3rd best and its not like the Bengals did not have playmakers. AJ Green is a tier 1 WR who would just carry games on his own. Generally they have had better number 2 and number 3 WRs and while not amazing their offensive line was okay and they had better receiving RBs and despite all that Dalton could help but be the weak link. If Dalton is starting for a team, the ceiling for that team is to make the playoffs.

Also its opinion based on history. Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round but if you try to find a franchise QB in the 6th round today it might take you 15-20 attempts. The history says 2/3 first round QBs are busts and it gets much worse much faster as it goes it. Their is no magic wand that people can use to just know when a QB will be a star or a bust. What they can know is who is most likely to succeed and those guys are drafted in the top 50 and even then its closer to 50-50 (slightly lower).

Now maybe the Cowboys can get lucky, but at the end of the day that is what you are hoping they do. You are hoping they get lucky or they spend 5-7 years on average rolling the dice over and over.

Well, if each QB isn't operating under the same set of conditions, same variables, then I could understand this but each has had different careers, different situations so I don't see how you can really make that comparison but the good news is that we might actually see how each work in this Offense. I've watched Dalton a lot of his career. I don't agree that he was the "weak link" on many of those teams.

You say that the ceiling for a team that Dalton QBs is the playoffs. OK, well I ask, how is that different then what we've seen from Dak? I don't buy that either. I don't think that's a fair assessment of either QB. But if that's what you believe, that's fine. I'm just not going to agree with you.

AJ Green is one guy, one WR. There is no doubt, at all, that Dak has enjoyed a much better supporting cast on Offense his entire career in Dallas, then has Dalton. I would challenge the idea that Dalton has had better 2 and 3 WRs. I don't believe that. I know that they haven't had close to the same quality of TEs nor RBs. OL is not in the same Hemisphere. There is no doubt in my mind that Dak has enjoyed better personnel his entire career, then has Dalton.
 

Adreme

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Well, if each QB isn't operating under the same set of conditions, same variables, then I could understand this but each has had different careers, different situations so I don't see how you can really make that comparison but the good news is that we might actually see how each work in this Offense. I've watched Dalton a lot of his career. I don't agree that he was the "weak link" on many of those teams.

You say that the ceiling for a team that Dalton QBs is the playoffs. OK, well I ask, how is that different then what we've seen from Dak? I don't buy that either. I don't think that's a fair assessment of either QB. But if that's what you believe, that's fine. I'm just not going to agree with you.

AJ Green is one guy, one WR. There is no doubt, at all, that Dak has enjoyed a much better supporting cast on Offense his entire career in Dallas, then has Dalton. I would challenge the idea that Dalton has had better 2 and 3 WRs. I don't believe that. I know that they haven't had close to the same quality of TEs nor RBs. OL is not in the same Hemisphere. There is no doubt in my mind that Dak has enjoyed better personnel his entire career, then has Dalton.

Michael Gallop could be a good WR if he wasnt 2nd in the league in drops and only averaged 58% completion when thrown to him (which is terrible). Fortunately the Cowboys drafted his replacement with their 1st round pick so now he will barely see the field. Meanwhile at the Tight End position Dak was throwing to either a player who was old 5 years ago or players who clearly just do not have it. Meanwhile, when tired of having superior weapons, Dalton also routinely had top 5 defenses to lean on. All of that and he still has not won a playoff game. He looked healthy how an injured Dak looked against the Eagles when it came time for him to perform.

I do not get where people get this idea that Dalton is a top 30 QB in the NFL. The numbers do not support it, the eye test does not support it, he career does not support it. There is no basis for it. He is a great backup but not someone you want starting.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Michael Gallop could be a good WR if he wasnt 2nd in the league in drops and only averaged 58% completion when thrown to him (which is terrible). Fortunately the Cowboys drafted his replacement with their 1st round pick so now he will barely see the field. Meanwhile at the Tight End position Dak was throwing to either a player who was old 5 years ago or players who clearly just do not have it. Meanwhile, when tired of having superior weapons, Dalton also routinely had top 5 defenses to lean on. All of that and he still has not won a playoff game. He looked healthy how an injured Dak looked against the Eagles when it came time for him to perform.

I do not get where people get this idea that Dalton is a top 30 QB in the NFL. The numbers do not support it, the eye test does not support it, he career does not support it. There is no basis for it. He is a great backup but not someone you want starting.

Gallop is a good WR and a lot of the drops are not on the WRs. A lot of those passes are horrible so I don't believe you can actually make that argument but there again, we will see this year as it's a very good possibility that we will see Dalton working with the same WRs. Also, the Cowboys didn't draft Gallups replacement. They drafted Coopers, if at all. Gallup is cheap and improving. He's not going anywhere anytime soon IMO.

LOL... The TE Dak was throwing to last year, even at the age he was, is much better then what Dalton has had to work with for most of his career. How does what you say help the case or change that fact?

How does the Defense equate to this discussion? The Defense in Cincy has nothing to do with how Dalton might work in our Offense. Honest question, did you actually watch Dalton early in his career? The losses against Houston and the Chargers were not on Dalton. Those teams were very limited Offensively and the one thing that was pretty constant was that they gave up pressure.

Still in all, Dak has shown little more at this point. I just don't see the clear upside at this point. But perhaps we will see when and if Dak holds out.
 

Adreme

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Gallop is a good WR and a lot of the drops are not on the WRs. A lot of those passes are horrible so I don't believe you can actually make that argument but there again, we will see this year as it's a very good possibility that we will see Dalton working with the same WRs. Also, the Cowboys didn't draft Gallups replacement. They drafted Coopers, if at all. Gallup is cheap and improving. He's not going anywhere anytime soon IMO.

LOL... The TE Dak was throwing to last year, even at the age he was, is much better then what Dalton has had to work with for most of his career. How does what you say help the case or change that fact?

How does the Defense equate to this discussion? The Defense in Cincy has nothing to do with how Dalton might work in our Offense. Honest question, did you actually watch Dalton early in his career? The losses against Houston and the Chargers were not on Dalton. Those teams were very limited Offensively and the one thing that was pretty constant was that they gave up pressure.

Still in all, Dak has shown little more at this point. I just don't see the clear upside at this point. But perhaps we will see when and if Dak holds out.

The definition of a drop in the NFL is "incomplete passes where the receiver SHOULD have caught the pass with ORDINARY effort.". They defer HEAVILY in favor of the WR when counting drops. That is why there were only 3 players in the NFL with double digit drops (Gallop was one with 11). Also, why when you feel like you saw 12 drops, the NFL only count 4-5 as drops because they can say the defender made a play or while he did get 2 hands on it, it was still a tough catch and they will not count those. However, once you get to around 10th or 11th the leaders are at 7 so dropping a little more than half the balls that Gallop does makes you in the upper echelon of drops.

For TEs, I would take Tyler Eifert receiving over what Jason did last year and its not close. Even Gresham was better than what Jason put out there last year. For why I talked D, Defense helps win games. Ask Peyton Manning who managed to lose playoff games despite never punting how important defense is and yet despite having one and great weapons on offense he could not get the job done.

I have watched most of the games Dalton has played because where I live, they put a lot of AFC North games on and he is a solid backup but low end starter. AJ Green could only bail him out so many times and when AJ Green hit the injury bug we saw what Dalton was and it was worse than any year Dak has had.

Finally there is a 0% chance Dak is not suited up for opening day if he is not injured. There is a 0% chance he misses actual games because it would make zero sense for him to do so. Every game he plays and gets closer to the end of next year, his leverage goes up not down. Missing games does not help that.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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The definition of a drop in the NFL is "incomplete passes where the receiver SHOULD have caught the pass with ORDINARY effort.". They defer HEAVILY in favor of the WR when counting drops. That is why there were only 3 players in the NFL with double digit drops (Gallop was one with 11). Also, why when you feel like you saw 12 drops, the NFL only count 4-5 as drops because they can say the defender made a play or while he did get 2 hands on it, it was still a tough catch and they will not count those. However, once you get to around 10th or 11th the leaders are at 7 so dropping a little more than half the balls that Gallop does makes you in the upper echelon of drops.

For TEs, I would take Tyler Eifert receiving over what Jason did last year and its not close. Even Gresham was better than what Jason put out there last year. For why I talked D, Defense helps win games. Ask Peyton Manning who managed to lose playoff games despite never punting how important defense is and yet despite having one and great weapons on offense he could not get the job done.

I have watched most of the games Dalton has played because where I live, they put a lot of AFC North games on and he is a solid backup but low end starter. AJ Green could only bail him out so many times and when AJ Green hit the injury bug we saw what Dalton was and it was worse than any year Dak has had.

Finally there is a 0% chance Dak is not suited up for opening day if he is not injured. There is a 0% chance he misses actual games because it would make zero sense for him to do so. Every game he plays and gets closer to the end of next year, his leverage goes up not down. Missing games does not help that.

The definition of drop is if a player can get a finger on the ball. The only definition I have seen, that stipulates the term "Ordinary Effort" was in a blog from Mike Reiss. I've never seen an official written rule with that language in it. If you have that, please post it as I would be interested in reading it. It actually penalizes the WRs and forgives the QBs. It's the worst state in professional Football IMO. I do understand that you are new to this board and that's not a big deal but understand, what we are talking about right now, has literally been discussed on this board for over 20 years. We will not talk about anything new in this conversation.

Well, we don't agree on Eifert. His best season as a pro was 2015. In that season, he posted the following:

2015 74 Tgts, 52 Rec., 615 yds, 11.8 AYPC, 13 TDs. 70.3% Rec Percentage

Eiferts numbers last year:

2019 63 Tgts, 43 Rec., 436 yds, 10.1 AYPC, 3 TDs. 68.3% Rec Percentage.

Witten's 2019 season:

2019 83 Tgts, 63 Rec., 5.29 yds, 8.4 AYPC, 5 TDs., 75.9% Rec Percentage.

Now this was Witten's worst statistic year in his entire career, other then his Rookie year where he started less then half the games in the season. This doesn't take into account the fact that Witten was vastly superior as an inline blocker. I'm sorry, we can't agree on Eifert.

Defense does help win games but the Defense in Cincy has nothing, at all, to do with the Offense in Dallas and how Dalton will play in that Offense.

I can't agree with your take on Dalton. Now, this is not to say that you will be wrong in your views but it definitely means that I don't agree with your conclusion.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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OK, I'm out guys. I gotta finish up some Certification Stuff and then I'm going to pop a top and start preparing a rub for a briskett.


Everybody, have a great weekend!
 

JD_KaPow

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Players get paid what owners are willing to pay within the constraints of the salary cap. That is the formula. End of story.

Absolutely nothing else matters, especially what fans think.
Slight edit. If there were no cap, top players would get more than they get today.
 

JD_KaPow

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Michael Gallop could be a good WR if he wasnt 2nd in the league in drops and only averaged 58% completion when thrown to him (which is terrible). Fortunately the Cowboys drafted his replacement with their 1st round pick so now he will barely see the field.
Hmm, perhaps you're being sarcastic? (Maybe misspelling his name was supposed to tip me off?)

Completion percentage for a receiver is a function of depth of target. Gallup had one of the greatest depth-of-target averages in the league (Dak throws a ton of deep balls to him). Even with the low completion %, Gallup went for 9.8 yards per target (13th in the league among receivers with 2 or more receptions per game) and 16.8 yards per reception (7th in the league). Football Outsiders has him as the 15th best WR in the league last year by volume, 19th by rate.

You're going to see plenty of Gallup.
 

zeke21

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This guy has a pretty good take on the situation.


Pretty much this. Dak isn't worth the money. Dalton is on par with skill set (but older etc). Dak not getting big money at any other NFL team this year. Dak will get paid because Jerry over invests in the relationship with players.

Sadly it is frustratingly true. Dak will get a monster contract, it will cripple the franchise for a long time and at the end of next season (or maybe the one after) there won't be a single person left who thinks Dak was worth anything close to that amount. The dude is a bus driver.

Right now, I'd rescind the tag.. let him test the market and put Dalton in the starting spot. Sign a competent back up and then invest the extra money in getting more talent on defence, particularly at corner. $25+ Million in cap space will give us room to develop several positions.

Won't happen but until I hear the dreaded news, I still have hope that the Cowboys can actually get their **** together for once.
 

Keithfansince5

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If we look at the highest paid QBs and their history of superbowl and superbowl wins appearances, we will see a reality that should change, first let's look at Aaron Rodgers, he was selected in 2005 and it was until 2011 that he led packers to the superbowl and they won it. Between those years he had a salary between 10M and 22M per year, it was until 2018 that he was given a contract for an average salary of 33.5M per year, at the age of 34, since 2011 he has not had appearances in a Superbowl again. and from what you see he is in the final stretch of his career because he is already 36 years old.

Now let's look at Russel Wilson, he was selected in 2012, it was until 2014 that he led the Seahawks to the superbowl and they won it, and he had another appearance in the superbowl the following year and lost him. After winning the superbowl he was given a contract of 21.9 M per year, and it was until 2019 that he was given the 35M contract per year, at the age of 30, since 2015 he has not had appearances in superbowls, and this year 2020 he does not have very high expectations to get back to a superbowl

now it's Ben Roethlisberger's turn, he was selected in 2004, it was in 2006 that he had an appearance in the superbowl and they won it, then in 2009 they came back to the superbowl and they won it, and in 2011 they came again and this once they lost it. Between 2006 and 2011 he had a presence in the superbowl Ben had a salary between 14.6M and 21.8M, it was until 2019 that he was given the average 34M salary per year, at the age of 37, from 2011 has had no appearance at the Superbowl, and has no high expectations of reappearance.

Matt Ryan, selected in 2008 in the first round, led his team to the superbowl until 2017, his contracts before playing the superbowl between 2008 and 2017 was between 11.2M and 20.7M, until 2018 he received a 30M contract per year at 33 years. has little prospect of returning to the superbowl

These contracts can be said to be fair, but they are still excessive because there is no certainty that they will return to a Superbowl, the following contracts are a sign of corruption that is affecting current contracts, bad business, hasty and baseless.

It is the turn of Jared Goff, he was selected in 2016 selected number one global, and it was in 2019 that he had an appearance in superbowl which they lost, he just signed a contract for 33.5M at the age of 25, very hasty in my opinion. has medium expectations of returning to the superbowl,

Carson Wentz, selected in 2016 and had an appearance and guided the eagles to the superbowl in 2018, the same won but by the hand of Nick Foles, in 2019 he signed a very hasty contract of 32M per year, since he is very prone to get injured, you have a good chance of going back to a superbowl,

Kirk Cousins, selected in 2012, has had no superbowl appearances, just received a 28M contract per year, at age 33, bad contract,

Jacoby Brissett, selected in 2016, does not have appearances in the super bowl, he has not achieved anything, in 2019 he was given a salary of 27.98 M at the age of 27 very bad contract.

Jimmy Garoppolo, selected in 2014, had an appearance in the superbowl as a substitute for Brady in 2015, it was until 2019 that he led San Francisco to the super bowl which they lost. in 2018 he receives a contract that averages 27.5M per year at the age of 26. a regular contract, since it is not an elite QB,

Finally, Matthew Stafford, the first round selection in 2009, has no super bowl appearances, nor has he achieved anything, but in 2017 he was given a contract of 27M per year, another bad contract, but the price of being the same is the same. selection 1 of the draft,

If we compare them with the great Tom Brady, they are far from his quality in all aspects, Brady has had a maximum salary of 25M but throughout his career he has been between 12M and 19M per year, in summary Dak's ego is very high, pretending to win more than several that in a way have done something to deserve a high contract, but from what we saw, having a better paid QB in the league does not guarantee that he will win a Superbowl, a team does not need a QB with many dollars, I require that they invest in the entire team and make it competitive, so for me Dak is a moron, an opportunist, who should not be part of the jeans, with Dak or without Dak The team has a chance of making it to the Superbowl because it has talent on its roster. Dak is a squeaky kid, hopefully the Joneses soon get tired and look for another alternative, and focus on the team and not Dak, Dak is not a guarantee of winning a Superbowl, the guarantee is to have a very good team around your QB,
I agree with your premise. Paying Dak an elite contract will be a road block to the teams success.
 

buybuydandavis

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Ok, one more time. Contract negotiations have nothing to do with who DESERVES what based on whatever.

It has everything to do with what each sides alternative is.

Prescott is holding most of those cards, because the team is built to contend during the term of the contract, and Jerry isnt going to let that go. He cant jump on Amazon (or Texaco as Parcells liked to say) and get a replacement.

Is Prescott the BEST QB? No, but when he signs his deal he will be the highest paid until someone who is better becomes a free agent also, and that's how it's going to be.

I think Dak is fine playing on the tag, and I hope Jerry is too. This year we evaluate Dalton as a Dak replacement. Also Romo 2.
 

kskboys

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Obviously he didn’t win the SB because he wasn’t playing. But the Eagles do not win the SB that year without him playing the way he did. Foles had to beat one crappy team out of 3 to get the one seed. Wentz was a huge reason he was in that position. He was a huge reason why the team could galvanize for a short run...it was because they were in a position of strength from the regular season’s success up to that point....and they could come together for a short time in an effort not to blow the opportunity they had.

I don’t think any reasonable football fan believes the Eagles would have had the one seed if Foles was the starter all year.
Prolly wouldn't have made the playoffs. Foles was awful down the stretch, wasn't great vs ATL, and just had to drive the bus in the 38-7 butt womping they gave MINN. Great in the super bowl, BTW, no argument there.
 
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