Multiple Front Defense - By the numbers

xwalker · May 30, 2020

Cowboyny said:
-Sounds pretty simplistic, as each safety just has to cover his half of the field. It makes more sense now in this quarters scheme why they are in essence starting two cover free safeties than then a tradition free/strong.

-A big lineup with 7 in the box to stop the run. I gather that's the combination of the front 4 and the hybrid player (more of a stand-up DE) along with the two linebackers. Both Jaylon/Lve are around that 250 lb benchmark and are considered big at the position.

-No matter the alignment up front, it appears the new Defense is going to rush 5 on an consistent basis, compared to 4 under Marinelli. With press coverage on the outside, disrupting timing, you would think the Linebackers will have a key role within this defense. When QB's have to get the ball out quickly, they usually throw to hot routes underneath. Tackling has to be paramount.

Marinelli used stunts as an alternative to blitzing.
- One problem with stunts is that DL are often out of position vs the run.
- Stunts takes longer than blitzes.
- Players like DT M.Collins would often get free by stunting but it would be just a split second too late.

George Edwards was a big addition to the coaching staff.
- His title is Senior Defensive Assistant.
- He was the DC for the Vikings although that really means assistant DC with Head Coach Mike Zimmer as the true DC.
- The Vikings were very good at finding ways to "help" their pass rushers.
- They would move a LB up near the line either inside or outside of a DE.
- The DE would sometime align very wide and other times in tight.
- The DE's alignment was often coordinated with the LB that was showing blitz.
- The Vikings were able to cause just a little hesitation for the OL that had to wait until after the snap to really know who was pass rushing.

xwalker · May 30, 2020

Kaiser said:
All of this is a wildcard until we really see them on the field but Woods was a playmaker in college. If he has fewer responsibilities and more experience, he could definitely step up into a guy who is making plays instead of what we saw last year.

Yes, when HaHa was first signed, it was announced that Woods would be considered the SS.
- I was concerned about that until I started reviewing Mike Nolan's pass defenses and saw that Quarters coverage would be a good fit.
- They still designate 1 Safety as SS and one as FS because they will play a few snaps in single-high, but in general both Safeties have similar requirements in Quarters coverage.

Kaiser · May 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Yes, when HaHa was first signed, it was announced that Woods would be considered the SS.

I've always been very Mehh on HaHa, how do you think he will do this year?

xwalker · May 30, 2020

Kaiser said:
I've always been very Mehh on HaHa, how do you think he will do this year?

I've watched a lot of Green Bay games over the past decade. More than any team other than the Cowboys.

My long time Girlfriend is a Green Bay fan.

I always thought HaHa was a solid player. I never really focused on him per se, but he seemed to make a lot of plays and didn't seem to have many obvious fails.

I feel better about him considering that McCarthy knows him and should know what he can and can't do.

My guess is that he was used differently with the teams after the Packers and/or the surrounding players were not as good as they were in GB.

You question might prompt me to go back and review him; although, it requires watching more snaps to review Safeties than some position because they are often not involved in the play.

Cowboyny · May 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Marinelli used stunts as an alternative to blitzing.
- One problem with stunts is that DL are often out of position vs the run.
- Stunts takes longer than blitzes.
- Players like DT M.Collins would often get free by stunting but it would be just a split second too late.

George Edwards was a big addition to the coaching staff.
- His title is Senior Defensive Assistant.
- He was the DC for the Vikings although that really means assistant DC with Head Coach Mike Zimmer as the true DC.
- The Vikings were very good at finding ways to "help" their pass rushers.
- They would move a LB up near the line either inside or outside of a DE.
- The DE would sometime align very wide and other times in tight.
- The DE's alignment was often coordinated with the LB that was showing blitz.
- The Vikings were able to cause just a little hesitation for the OL that had to wait until after the snap to really know who was pass rushing.

On that recent podcast with George Iloka, he said the coaches at Minnesota, always found a way to to scheme a free blitzer. DeMarcus Ware this week said, that the pass rushers will love this defense as there will be many times when they see advantageous match-ups. Edwards might be a very underrated signing.

Under Wade Phillips, this team was always considered excellent against the run, matter of fact they were one of the few teams that rarely brought extra men in the box to stop it. As you said in a previous and I totally agree, the 3-4 alignment was used to better stop the run, not disguising pressure packages. Now the team will be using many different fronts, but the #1 priority is making teams one dimensional and stopping the run. Everything is based off that!!

Cowboyny · May 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Run Defense Starting with the max run defense alignment (not including goal-line alignments).
Big 4-3: Hybrid player at OL. That's similar to 5 DL vs the run.
True 3-4: The hybrid player(s) at OLB. The 3 DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs (only 2 DL in that space with a true 4-3).
True 4-3: The hybrid player is a DE in this alignment. The LBs are all 4-3 types with more coverage ability than hybrids or 3-4 OLBs.

The base is 2-deep but each Safety has the option to drop down into or near the box area based on the offensive alignment on his side and the down/distance situation.
- Note: The 2-deep Safeties align closer to the line than a single-high FS but farther off the line than a true SS.
- It allows the Safeties to be somewhat tweeners as compared to a single high base defense's FS or SS.
- Less time in the box and protected by bigger front 7 if they do drop down into the box area allows for smaller Safeties than a true SS.
- Less range required than a single-high FS allows for some players that don't have great range to play in 2-deep alignments.
- It's probably good for X.Woods. He is too small to be a true SS. He has decent but not elite range at FS.
- I'm curious to see Donovan Wilson. His college position coach is now his position coach with the Cowboys.

Excellent detailed response!

-I suspect Crawford being apart of that big 4-3 alignment. His biggest strength is against the run. Aldon Smith would also be apart of that package.
-Woods has shown flashes in coverage, but he always seem a tick too late. Covering less of the field, could make him more impactful.
-Yes, I aware the Wilson's coach is now on the staff, he should know everything about the player. In my opinion, this year is about getting his feet wet in the sub-packages and hopefully he will be ready to ascend to becoming a starter in 2021. A lot of unknown with the future at the position. I have seen some of the early 2021 mocks, with several 1st rd graded safeties, that could be the direction if nobody stands out this year.

BAT · May 30, 2020

DanA said:
I’m pretty confident that Mike Nolan will fit the scheme to the players, it’s been stated a number of times now. If that’s the case then the players on the field to a large extent will dictate the split.

I’d expect Jaylon to be 40% rush 60% coverage because he’s always been an off ball LB. Where as a Gregory or Anae would be 80% plus as a pass rusher.

I hope you are right but he has not proven this to be true when was last a DC.

https://sportsnaut.com/2020/04/former-pro-bowl-cb-shades-cowboys-dc-mike-nolan/

Nolan is saying all the right things, that scheme not important and getting his best 11 players on field is priority but what he says and what he's done does not always match up.

Nolan has certain characteristics he prefers, Falcons media called them "Mike Nolan guys".

https://syndication.bleacherreport....s-to-run-a-proper-mike-nolan-defense.amp.html

ScipioCowboy · May 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Belichick has been doing it the past 2 years (maybe more but I've reviewed the Pats past 2 seasons in detail).
- In 2018 the Pats were a base 4-3 but that really just defines what alignment they were in most often on 1st downs and short yardage situations.
- In 2019 the Pats were a base 3-4 but again that just defines what alignment they were in most often on 1st downs and short yardage situations.

For both Belichick and in the past for Mike Nolan the varied fronts are focused on methods to stop the run without a big sacrifice in pass defense.
- Marinelli's only significant variation was to use a 3 man DL on passing downs (i.e. a 4-3 with 1 DT removed).
- The Cowboys used the 3 man DL more in 2019 than in the past under Marinelli.
- Jaylon would play a hybrid LB/DL role with the 1 DT out and another LB would come in and play Jaylon's normal role.

Both Belichick and Nolan like to play the run with "7 men in the box" by using varied fronts.
- Instead of having the 8th man up, they use a bigger overall front 7 when they want to stop the run.
- You'll often see the Pats SS up but that's often with the Nickel CB back like a 2-deep Safety (i.e. Still 7 in the box).

The Pats defense has evolved to be centered around big LBs. They only had 1 LB that played significant snaps in 2018 and 2019 that was under 250.
- In 2019 they only had 2 DL over 300 pounds.
- It will be interesting to see their performance this year because the on-field "brains" of that defense was hybrid LB Kyle Van Noy and he departed in free agency.
- They drafted a DE in 2019 (Chase Winovich 6-3, 250) that appears to be the replacement for Van Noy.
- Winovich is listed on the Pats roster as a DE but he played primarily as a LB in 2019.

Both Belichick and Mike Nolan like to play 2-deep Safety alignments (often Quarters coverage).
- A huge problem for the Cowboys in 2019 was that they would align the single high FS towards the side with 2 WRs (i.e. the side with the slot WR).
- That meant no deep help on the other side.
- In Quarters coverage there is a Safety on both sides instead of 1 deep Safety trying to cover the entire width of the field.
- Quarters improves intermediate and deep pass defense but is a 7 man in the box type alignment vs the run.
- By using a bigger front 7, run defense is improved without an SS up in the box.
- Obviously bigger hybrid DE/LBs are not a good in pass coverage as most 4-3 LBs but that is offset by having both Safeties back in a better coverage alignment.
- An added benefit of a using Quarters as the base coverage is with regards to roster management.
- Both Safeties are similar without the need to carry 2 separate types of Starters and Backups.
- The 3rd best Safety can easily backup both spots; whereas, with single-high schemes the backup SS might be different than the backup FS.

In 2019 with Kris Richard responsible the back 7 and calling the plays but not having control over the DL, his only recourse to improve in stopping the run was to sacrifice pass defense.
- KR basically just took away both deep inside and short inside help from the CB on the side with 1 WR. That was most often Awuzie.
- At the same time Awuzie still had significant responsibilities in run defense while having no help in pass defense.
- Even Deion and Richard Sherman didn't have that much responsibility to be superman.
- Deion had no help in pass defense but didn't have extensive expectations to come up and stop outside runs.
- Richard Sherman had either deep inside help from Earl Thomas or short inside help from LBs and the SS. He often had help both short/long inside.

Many defenses use an SS in the box to improve run defense or keep the SS back for the best pass defense.
- In the past couple of years the Cowboys would often have SS Heath up in the box area but he still had responsibility to play man coverage from short to deep.
- We saw in 2019 when Heath missed games that Thompson couldn't play that style because he didn't have the elite speed of Heath.

Are we sure quarters is the base coverage?

gimmesix · May 30, 2020

Cowboyny said:
My only worry is the last time they tried to run more of a complex defense, it was a total disaster under Rob Ryan.

Ryan seemed to go crazy with all the different fronts he wanted to use. It's good to be able to shift one or two players around to change your fronts but Ryan would sometimes basically have the entire front seven shift around before the snap. You get caught by the snap while doing that and there's no way to recover.

ConstantReboot · May 31, 2020

xwalker said:
Yes, when HaHa was first signed, it was announced that Woods would be considered the SS.
- I was concerned about that until I started reviewing Mike Nolan's pass defenses and saw that Quarters coverage would be a good fit.
- They still designate 1 Safety as SS and one as FS because they will play a few snaps in single-high, but in general both Safeties have similar requirements in Quarters coverage.

I think they will use Haha more of a single safety high with press coverage. I hope so. I so sick of our team playing 3 deep giving so much space up the middle.

xwalker · May 31, 2020

BAT said:
I hope you are right but he has not proven this to be true when was last a DC.

https://sportsnaut.com/2020/04/former-pro-bowl-cb-shades-cowboys-dc-mike-nolan/

Nolan is saying all the right things, that scheme not important and getting his best 11 players on field is priority but what he says and what he's done does not always match up.

Nolan has certain characteristics he prefers, Falcons media called them "Mike Nolan guys".

https://syndication.bleacherreport....s-to-run-a-proper-mike-nolan-defense.amp.html

Players opinions are historically very skewed based on how coaches treated them specifically. Player near the end often don't like coaches because coaches are normally trying to replace those players.
- Player's opinions about scheme are usually tied to the scheme they like the best personally, not the big picture aspect of the scheme.

The 2014 Falcons defense was void of talent. Much of the talent they did have went to IR or were well past their prime.
https://cowboyszone.com/threads/mike-nolans-last-season-as-d-coordinator-roster.458906/

gimmesix · May 31, 2020

ConstantReboot said:
I think they will use Haha more of a single safety high with press coverage. I hope so. I so sick of our team playing 3 deep giving so much space up the middle.

From everything I've read, it looks like we'll mainly use press man with the safeties both playing behind that instead of single high. Variations off that will include dropping into single high, but I think Nolan wants to use cover 2 principles primarily, which is why we didn't bring in any strong safety types.

gimmesix · May 31, 2020

xwalker said:
Players opinions are historically very skewed based on how coaches treated them specifically. Player near the end often don't like coaches because coaches are normally trying to replace those players.
- Player's opinions about scheme are usually tied to the scheme they like the best personally, not the big picture aspect of the scheme.

The 2014 Falcons defense was void of talent. Much of the talent they did have went to IR or were well past their prime.
https://cowboyszone.com/threads/mike-nolans-last-season-as-d-coordinator-roster.458906/

I think we can also look at Nolan's other stops in comparison and see that Atlanta was an aberration. If a coach consistently improves defenses wherever he goes, then suddenly is unable to do that, there's a good possibility there's a reason beyond the coaching.

Rob Ryan was mentioned earlier in this thread, and even though I don't think Ryan is a very good coordinator, I believe his stay here was definitely worse because of all the injuries we suffered. His schemes were too complex to just be able to plug in next man up IMO.

xwalker · May 31, 2020

ScipioCowboy said:
Are we sure quarters is the base coverage?

That's what Nolan used in the past.

That's what has been reported that he'll use now.

Quarters is good vs the pass but it is a 7 man in the box defense vs the run (although, either Safety has the option to move down based on offensive alignment on his side).

BAT · May 31, 2020

xwalker said:
Players opinions are historically very skewed based on how coaches treated them specifically. Player near the end often don't like coaches because coaches are normally trying to replace those players.
- Player's opinions about scheme are usually tied to the scheme they like the best personally, not the big picture aspect of the scheme.

The 2014 Falcons defense was void of talent. Much of the talent they did have went to IR or were well past their prime.
https://cowboyszone.com/threads/mike-nolans-last-season-as-d-coordinator-roster.458906/

Interesting that Assante Samuels is not listed in your link.

But the fact remains that Nolan had ONE great defense many years ago with the Ravens. Rex Ryan also claims credit for the same defense. And since the Falcons, it has been 6 years since Nolan got another DC opportunity.

Other than the Ravens, almost 2 decades ago, none of Nolans defenses have been special. And he surely does not have a reputation of improving defenses his first year on the job.

He is no longer Wade Phillips that is for sure.

BAT · May 31, 2020

2 gap 3-4 is focused on stopping run first.

1 gap 3-4 is focused on rushing the passer first.

http://www.hudl.com/v/28bX0v

https://www.espn.com/blog/nfcsouth/...m-wade-phillips-book-in-switch-to-3-4-defense

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/01/08/w...football-life-marcus-peters-aaron-donald-sean

BAT · May 31, 2020

“This has happened a few times, where I’ll take over a 4-3 and go to a 3-4,” Phillips said, according to Mark Whicker of The Orange County Register. “But the 3-4 is better. You’re normally bringing four pass rushers. In a 4-3, that means all the linemen. In a 3-4, that’s three linemen plus a linebacker, but you don’t know which linebacker is coming. That causes some confusion and gives the defensive backs a better chance. Nowadays it’s all about stopping the passing game.”

https://steelersdepot.com/2017/02/new-rams-dc-wade-phillips-explains-3-4-man-coverage-choice/

“We play a matchup zone and people think it’s man-to-man,” Phillips said just over a year ago, according to Nicki Jhabvala of the Denver Post. “Then we play man-to-man and we play some basic zone. We say, ‘Hey, you’re playing this zone, but when a guy comes over there, you match with him. You pass it off, just like in basketball. When another guy comes there, you go there.’ We play a lot of match zone, but people think we’re playing man-to-man. Hopefully that confuses them. It probably confused you already.”

xwalker · May 31, 2020

BAT said:
Interesting that Assante Samuels is not listed in your link.

But the fact remains that Nolan had ONE great defense many years ago with the Ravens. Rex Ryan also claims credit for the same defense. And since the Falcons, it has been 6 years since Nolan got another DC opportunity.

Other than the Ravens, almost 2 decades ago, none of Nolans defenses have been special. And he surely does not have a reputation of improving defenses his first year on the job.

He is no longer Wade Phillips that is for sure.

My post was about the 2014 Falcons defense.

Asante Samuel was out of the NFL by then.

FYI, it's Asante Samuel not Assante Samuels.

Multiple Front Defense - By the numbers

xwalker

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xwalker

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Kaiser

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xwalker

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Cowboyny

Well-Known Member

Cowboyny

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BAT

Mr. Fixit

ScipioCowboy

More than meets the eye.

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life

ConstantReboot

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xwalker

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gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life

xwalker

Well-Known Member

BAT

Mr. Fixit

BAT

Mr. Fixit

BAT

Mr. Fixit

xwalker

Well-Known Member