How bad was Quinn vs run

JoeKing · Jun 21, 2020

stasheroo said:
And you do you as well...

... despite all of the people who tell you to your face about acting like a jerk.

Lie to yourself and think that you're good.

That doesn't sound like anything I've ever witnessed or heard about. You got me pegged all wrong which is how I like it.

Stash · Jun 21, 2020

JoeKing said:
That doesn't sound like anything I've ever witnessed or heard about. You got me pegged all wrong which is how I like it.

That's a quote from yet another party, just how many do you need before it sinks in?

JoeKing · Jun 21, 2020

stasheroo said:
That's a quote from yet another party, just how many do you need before it sinks in?

It's also not applicable to me. Try again.

Point-of-the-Star · Jun 21, 2020

Rayman70 said:
he was a pass rush specialist, PERIOD. As long as you understand that and how to use him, he's great. But if you ask him to be something he isn't, you will be disappointed. He's just not a run stuffer. He gets washed out fairly easy. We now have heavy handed bigger DE'S to take over..except for Randy Gregory. Aldon Smith gives us some power off the edge. SOME GIRTH. Plus the interior looks stout.

Gregory was more athletic than RQ. He can do the same speed rush things but he also can close that inside gap.

cowboyed · Jun 21, 2020

Point-of-the-Star said:
Gregory was more athletic than RQ. He can do the same speed rush things but he also can close that inside gap.

Gregory is an elastic, relentless, speedy pass rusher and long bodied. I like to call him Mr. Taffee. He could grab the opposing quarterback going around the side of the right guard before even passing him.

ultron · Jun 21, 2020

I’ve said it time and time and time again, Robert Quinn leaving was the best thing that happened this offseason. This guy was absolute dog shiiiiit vs the run last year and cost us at least 2 games and a playoff birth. He was horrendous and left this defense out to dry 90% of the time.

quickccc · Jun 21, 2020

cowboyed said:
Gregory is an elastic, relentless, speedy pass rusher and long bodied. I like to call him Mr. Taffee. He could grab the opposing quarterback going around the side of the right guard before even passing him.

Didn't they nicknamed Gregory " Gumby " his rookie because he had such unusual bend and contouring agility ?.

cowboyed · Jun 21, 2020

quickccc said:
Didn't they nicknamed Gregory " Gumby " his rookie because he had such unusual bend and contouring agility ?.

I think you are right, I was also thinking of Mr. Fantastic because he could s-t-r-e-t-c-h. Gumby works, just wondering if anyone below the age of 40 in here ever heard of him?

Cowboyny · Jun 21, 2020

quickccc said:
if it came down to missing Crawford that much, it's only because there was no else to resort to.
Armstrong ? Hyder ?

for better or worse, Quinn was our only consistent pure pass rusher with Dlaw having a down year.
Quinn was probably better suited as a Fred Dean type pass rush specialist. But on an overall unit that
lack consistent QB pressure, and poorly designed blitzers, we had to have Quinn's edge rush ability.

it will be interesting to see how Quinn adapts to a 3-4 type scheme with the Bears that he struggled with the Fins.

-You nailed it, it was a combination of the both. Zero pass rush behind Quinn at the position as well as a quality run stuffer behind him. The lack of depth quite honesty was piss poor. Although it's somewhat better this season, team is relying on questionable options-Gregory/Aldon haven't played a full season of snaps in years, Anae is an unproven, physically challenged prospect. He looked good at the senior bowl, but let's see how be does against a quality tackle like Tyron in practice first. Armstrong, Jackson? Who knows.

xwalker · Jun 21, 2020

This video guy continues to mislead Cowboys fans.

This video might be the worst analysis in the history of Cowboys football.

Video guy tries to take advantage of an existing narrative by creating his videos “analyzing” the problem.

Narrative: Robert Quinn was a bad run defender.

Reality: Quinn was not a plus run defender; however, the plays that video guy “analyzes” were actually plays where Quinn did his job vs the run.

The “analysis” is so bad that video guy repeatedly shows plays where the Cowboys should be praised for changing up from the primary style of run defense which had been the biggest problem going back to the Rams playoff game. If they had played this alternate style in the Rams playoff game they probably would have won.

Hint: You’ll need to keep reading to get the details of the “alternate style”; however, it’s basically having the DL “stay home” vs runs that start to the outside instead of vacating the inside trying to quickly get to the outside.

The problems with the video:

1:21
Video guy says "bad play by Quinn". In reality Quinn maintains outside contain (outside of his blocker). The RB cuts back all the way to the other side.

2:26
Video guy shows Michael Bennett and claims Quinn should play the same way. Video guy has no awareness that Bennett is playing LDE which is always the “Strong Side” in Marinelli's scheme. As the Strong Side DE Bennett is aligned right on the outside shoulder of the OT. In this play the 3tech DT is on the side with Bennett which means no open gap to the inside of Bennett.

Notice that Quinn as the RDE is aligned a full 2 positions further outside the OT (i.e. Quinn at 7tech, Bennett at 5tech).

3:09
Video guy shows that DLaw flows down the line as the backside DE. Video guys raves about how DLaw goes down the line instead of up-field like Quinn had done on the previous play as the backside defender. Big problem on that analysis...the OT moved down the line away from DLaw. Literally nobody was blocking him. No player would run up-field on that play.

On the previous play with Quinn, it was a different run play and the OT was blocking Quinn. It's not a remotely similar situation.

4:14 (note: this is an example of the alternate style)
The RB didn't gain yards on this play. Video guy complains about Quinn staying inside the TE. The run play was intended to be a cut back to the inside and Quinn was a major reason that didn't happen.

Video guy also can't understand that there are two basic ways the Cowboys defend these plays and it's based on the defensive play call.

The Cowboys going back to the Rams playoff game, had generally had the DL quickly moving laterally towards the outside on run plays that started to the outside. They had the DL (primarily the front side DT) taking themselves out of the inside leaving the inside vulnerable to the inside cut-back.

They finally started changing it up on occasion with the DL “staying home” and not jumping towards the outside. On this play the front side DT plays straight up by not initially moving outside of his original alignment. By seeing how the front-side DT played it tells us that Quinn was required by the defensive play call to play straight up which means inside the blocker on a play flowing outside.

The other clue is that the SS is aligned outside of Quinn. When a LB or SS is aligned outside the RDE, it means the RDE likely does not have outside contain responsibility (outside of his blocker).

6:40
Video guy now complains because Quinn stayed outside the LT. Notice that the 3 LBs are all aligned inside. There are no LBs or Safeties outside the LT. Quinn obviously has outside contain responsibility.

The problem on this play was a recurring problem where the backside OT is able to get inside the backside DT. That gives the backside OG a free release to get out and block LBs.

Jaylon hesitated a split second and the RB cuts all the back with the extra free OL blocking on the 2nd level.

7:17 (“alternate style” again)
Like one of the previous plays, the front-side DT plays straight up instead of jumping towards the outside. It is a designed cut back play but Quinn and the front-side DT stay inside and it's a no-gain play.

It's not obvious from this camera view, but Byron Jones is outside with no WR blocking him. Like the clue of seeing either a LB or Safety outside of Quinn, having a CB with no blocker also gives us a clue that Quinn might play the run to the inside (because of the play call, not because Quinn randomly makes that decision).

8:16 (“alternate style” again but offense schemed against it)
Again, SS aligned outside Quinn. Watching Quinn's hands show that he wanted to engage the LT but the LT blocked back to the inside with the LG and OC pulling around.

Like some previous plays, the backside DT is easily blocked by the OT giving the backside OG a free release to get out and block Jaylon.

The OC is able to pull around and block Lee.

The Cowboys tried to change things up by having the DL “stay home” instead of over-committing outside but the offense recognized what the Cowboys were trying to do and called a play to counter it.

It was a good schematic win for the offense on that play.

8:45
At least Video guy finally acknowledges that there is coordination between the DL and DE with regards to when the DE plays inside or outside vs the run. The problem is he seems to think the DE and LB just make up those rules themselves…Hello video guy, there are coaches that create schemes and force players to play by those scheme rules. Even if the coaches don’t do a great job of it, the coaches and scheme dictate those concepts.

It was obviously the defensive play call for Quinn to play inside and for Jaylon to have outside contain.

If Quinn had stayed outside then both Quinn and Jaylon would be on the outside because of the defensive play call.

Quinn was the primary force player on that play and it resulted in lost yards for the RB with Hill coming over to make the tackle.

TwoDeep3 · Jun 21, 2020

Here's the deal.

This is a time like no other in professional football. We all know the circumstances with the virus and tension on the street. Most of the sports outlets on the radio focus more on political issues and the strife this country finds itself in. So any source which discusses football, without some highly paid "expert" telling you what to think is a blessing.

Does he know his stuff? Maybe. Maybe not. But he is consistent with producing content that is thought provoking. Enough so you posted this thread.

Is he the worst? By far, no he is not. Was this video the worst? There is some home grown "analyst" whose real slant is to sell you suits from the company that pays for his content on youtube. It would be difficult to find anything worse than that, unless you had a 24/7 Bayless SAS channel and were coerced to watch it - somewhat like Little Alex in A Clockwork Orange.

I respect your opinion. And I think you do have a few points which are salient.

And yet, this guy is a Cowboy fan who shows up, man's up, and breaks the monotony of this season from Hades for us Dallas Cowboys Junkies.

You may have the best signature on this site.

CowboyRoy · Jun 21, 2020

xwalker said:
This video guy continues to mislead Cowboys fans.

This video might be the worst analysis in the history of Cowboys football.

Video guy tries to take advantage of an existing narrative by creating his videos “analyzing” the problem.

Narrative: Robert Quinn was a bad run defender.

Reality: Quinn was not a plus run defender; however, the plays that video guy “analyzes” were actually plays where Quinn did his job vs the run.

The “analysis” is so bad that video guy repeatedly shows plays where the Cowboys should be praised for changing up from the primary style of run defense which had been the biggest problem going back to the Rams playoff game. If they had played this alternate style in the Rams playoff game they probably would have won.

Hint: You’ll need to keep reading to get the details of the “alternate style”; however, it’s basically having the DL “stay home” vs runs that start to the outside instead of vacating the inside trying to quickly get to the outside.

The problems with the video:

1:21
Video guy says "bad play by Quinn". In reality Quinn maintains outside contain (outside of his blocker). The RB cuts back all the way to the other side.

2:26
Video guy shows Michael Bennett and claims Quinn should play the same way. Video guy has no awareness that Bennett is playing LDE which is always the “Strong Side” in Marinelli's scheme. As the Strong Side DE Bennett is aligned right on the outside shoulder of the OT. In this play the 3tech DT is on the side with Bennett which means no open gap to the inside of Bennett.

Notice that Quinn as the RDE is aligned a full 2 positions further outside the OT (i.e. Quinn at 7tech, Bennett at 5tech).

3:09
Video guy shows that DLaw flows down the line as the backside DE. Video guys raves about how DLaw goes down the line instead of up-field like Quinn had done on the previous play as the backside defender. Big problem on that analysis...the OT moved down the line away from DLaw. Literally nobody was blocking him. No player would run up-field on that play.

On the previous play with Quinn, it was a different run play and the OT was blocking Quinn. It's not a remotely similar situation.

4:14 (note: this is an example of the alternate style)
The RB didn't gain yards on this play. Video guy complains about Quinn staying inside the TE. The run play was intended to be a cut back to the inside and Quinn was a major reason that didn't happen.

Video guy also can't understand that there are two basic ways the Cowboys defend these plays and it's based on the defensive play call.

The Cowboys going back to the Rams playoff game, had generally had the DL quickly moving laterally towards the outside on run plays that started to the outside. They had the DL (primarily the front side DT) taking themselves out of the inside leaving the inside vulnerable to the inside cut-back.

They finally started changing it up on occasion with the DL “staying home” and not jumping towards the outside. On this play the front side DT plays straight up by not initially moving outside of his original alignment. By seeing how the front-side DT played it tells us that Quinn was required by the defensive play call to play straight up which means inside the blocker on a play flowing outside.

The other clue is that the SS is aligned outside of Quinn. When a LB or SS is aligned outside the RDE, it means the RDE likely does not have outside contain responsibility (outside of his blocker).

6:40
Video guy now complains because Quinn stayed outside the LT. Notice that the 3 LBs are all aligned inside. There are no LBs or Safeties outside the LT. Quinn obviously has outside contain responsibility.

The problem on this play was a recurring problem where the backside OT is able to get inside the backside DT. That gives the backside OG a free release to get out and block LBs.

Jaylon hesitated a split second and the RB cuts all the back with the extra free OL blocking on the 2nd level.

7:17 (“alternate style” again)
Like one of the previous plays, the front-side DT plays straight up instead of jumping towards the outside. It is a designed cut back play but Quinn and the front-side DT stay inside and it's a no-gain play.

It's not obvious from this camera view, but Byron Jones is outside with no WR blocking him. Like the clue of seeing either a LB or Safety outside of Quinn, having a CB with no blocker also gives us a clue that Quinn might play the run to the inside (because of the play call, not because Quinn randomly makes that decision).

8:16 (“alternate style” again but offense schemed against it)
Again, SS aligned outside Quinn. Watching Quinn's hands show that he wanted to engage the LT but the LT blocked back to the inside with the LG and OC pulling around.

Like some previous plays, the backside DT is easily blocked by the OT giving the backside OG a free release to get out and block Jaylon.

The OC is able to pull around and block Lee.

The Cowboys tried to change things up by having the DL “stay home” instead of over-committing outside but the offense recognized what the Cowboys were trying to do and called a play to counter it.

It was a good schematic win for the offense on that play.

8:45
At least Video guy finally acknowledges that there is coordination between the DL and DE with regards to when the DE plays inside or outside vs the run. The problem is he seems to think the DE and LB just make up those rules themselves…Hello video guy, there are coaches that create schemes and force players to play by those scheme rules. Even if the coaches don’t do a great job of it, the coaches and scheme dictate those concepts.

It was obviously the defensive play call for Quinn to play inside and for Jaylon to have outside contain.

If Quinn had stayed outside then both Quinn and Jaylon would be on the outside because of the defensive play call.

Quinn was the primary force player on that play and it resulted in lost yards for the RB with Hill coming over to make the tackle.

Quinn was one of the worst run defenders I have ever seen. The run defense LITERALLY fell apart once he was inserted into the lineup.

CowboyRoy · Jun 21, 2020

Cowboyny said:
Clearly Quinn was a major liability against the run. The loss of Crawford was much bigger then many realize.

Correct. If we could have had Crawford on first down at DE and then brought in Quinn on passing downs to rush the passer, it would have been the perfect scenario. But having Quinn a 3 down DE was a complete disaster.

And THIS is the value of Crawford. Great against the run at DE and then can move into DT if needed on passing downs.

Oz-of-Cowboy-Country · Jun 21, 2020

If you are playing the DE position and you can't get off of an block by the TE, then you are horrible at run defense.

:hammer:

Redball Express · Jun 21, 2020

Dreski said:
It might be a long shot, but I’m really hoping Trysten Hill takes that next step this coming season. If Tomsula is the d line coach everyone says he is, and gets the best out of his players, and the idea(don’t think it’s confirmed) of Nolan running a multiple front Defense,I think Trysten can do well. He already kinda played in a 3-4 and 4-3, and he’s got potential. Just gotta put it together

With all the failure surrounding Marinelli and Richard in 2019..

we should wait on Hill.

He got a poor support situation with Bennett being signed and Quinn.

Hill lost his Marrinelli support and was blowing in the wind.

I just can't believe we are so bad with drafting DL that Taco and Hill both blow up.

buybuydandavis · Jun 21, 2020

quickccc said:
video per Voch Lombardi:

How bad was DE Robert Quinn vs run

An aside: watch how pathetic Jaylon looks on the last play. He ain't right.

On Quinn, he should have been a pass rush specialist for us. With Crawford going out, and apparently(?) no one stepping up, that left Quinn taking only 2% fewer snaps than Lawrence, both around 60%.

buybuydandavis · Jun 21, 2020

mattjames2010 said:
A lot of excuses were made for Quinn while he was a Cowboy. Now that he's gone, people want to acknowledge how bad he was against the run. One trick pony at this point in his career.

A one trick pony is fine if we only play him for his one trick. Quinn should have been a pass rush specialist. We played him like a full time RDE, largely because we had so little in the way of alternatives.

buybuydandavis · Jun 21, 2020

Redball Express said:
With all the failure surrounding Marinelli and Richard in 2019..

we should wait on Hill.

He got a poor support situation with Bennett being signed and Quinn.

Hill lost his Marrinelli support and was blowing in the wind.

I just can't believe we are so bad with drafting DL that Taco and Hill both blow up.

I can believe we're that bad, but we definitely shouldn't just bail on a guy with his size and first step.

Redball Express · Jun 22, 2020

buybuydandavis said:
I can believe we're that bad, but we definitely shouldn't just bail on a guy with his size and first step.

Stop it right now.

You injecting logic in an inexplainable situation is..

is inexplicable.

Its against the American Way.

Superman TV series with Steve Reeves-circa 1963 in front of my TV one Saturday morning with me wearing a red bathtowel pinned to my PJs

:lmao:

LatinMind · Jun 23, 2020

quickccc said:
video per Voch Lombardi:

How bad was DE Robert Quinn vs run

I couldnt even really pay attention to quinn in this video. What jumped out at me was how fast bennett gets off the snap.

How bad was Quinn vs run

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