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CowboyRoy

CowboyRoy

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starfan1 said:
Yes but it’s not mutually exclusive. I believe chido and his issues are coaching related. I’m a Dak fan but when misses a crossing route or zeke and Witten does a costly fumble that’s player execution. Or a crucial drop.
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Yes...…….simple human error.

But when your kicker sucks and you don't replace him or take too long, that isn't execution. Or when your scheme is predictable and they know what's coming, that isn't execution. When you run Zeke up the middle on first down 80% of the time, that isn't execution.
 
TwistedL0g1k

TwistedL0g1k

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DanA said:
This runs on the assumption that talent is fully utilized, there is no luck, and coaching doesn’t matter. Call it twisted logic or shallow thinking but either way it’s a bad assumption.
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If you think last year's roster was capable of winning the Superbowl, you weren't watching the same team as me. Not looking any deeper than coaching is the definition of "shallow thinking".
 

IheartRomo

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TwistedL0g1k said:
There were games last season where the Cowboys were absolutely manhandled at the line of scrimmage. Going into last season, most pundits judged the roster to be one of the best in the league. They were wrong. That team was in no way a Superbowl contender- and I don't care who the coach was.

Everyone has an opinion before a season starts as to which teams have the most talent- but at the end of the season it's no longer a matter of opinion.

You'll need to climb out of the kiddie pool before making any proclamations about "shallow thinking".
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Look at DVOA and a host of other advanced statistics. The roster was/is strong to very strong. Garrett being gone should go a long way towards giving the roster a better chance at contending.

The Cowboys suffered from the biggest actual deficit against expected wins in the entire NFL. Even a minor reversal of fortune in that department (which is almost a given based on history) makes this team a contender.
 
75boyz

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IheartRomo said:
Look at DVOA and a host of other advanced statistics. The roster was/is strong to very strong. Garrett being gone should go a long way towards giving the roster a better chance at contending.

The Cowboys suffered from the biggest actual deficit against expected wins in the entire NFL. Even a minor reversal of fortune in that department (which is almost a given based on history) makes this team a contender.
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I would like to believe this but historically, this team, just defaults to 8-8. It's like their factory settings are mediocrity and every reboot variable can't seem to fix it.

Just a couple of seasons ago when given up for dead at 3-5, the team won several Road and one score games that were outside of the norm.
Last year, the follow on season, seemed to remind it's former team self that both one score out comes and road games won by the travelling team would NOT be allowed to be so far to their positive side. Factory Setting Re Boot.
Outcome: 8-8.

It really is WHO they are.

Are they due for a 10-6? Possibly. But I wouldn't bet on more than a 2 game swing to the positive.

I'm actually the Danny Downer and predicting a further downward spiral to 6-10.

Only my opinion of course.
 
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TwistedL0g1k

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IheartRomo said:
Look at DVOA and a host of other advanced statistics. The roster was/is strong to very strong. Garrett being gone should go a long way towards giving the roster a better chance at contending.

The Cowboys suffered from the biggest actual deficit against expected wins in the entire NFL. Even a minor reversal of fortune in that department (which is almost a given based on history) makes this team a contender.
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I really hope you are right about the roster! It's a different roster for 2020 though, and one I think looks better. Difficult time for a transition to a new staff though.

Purely conjecture, but I think the best coaching in the league adds maybe a couple of wins last season. Probably enough to get in the play-offs. But- I remain convinced that the team had no chance of winning a championship. The roster just wasn't good enough, and of course that's just one fan's opinion.

It's interesting the difference in the "expected wins" you mention vs. actual. Was it only coaching that led to under-performance? Was the roster not as good as the analytics predicted? Both I think.
 
75boyz

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TwistedL0g1k said:
I really hope you are right about the roster! It's a different roster for 2020 though, and one I think looks better. Difficult time for a transition to a new staff though.

Purely conjecture, but I think the best coaching in the league adds maybe a couple of wins last season. Probably enough to get in the play-offs. But- I remain convinced that the team had no chance of winning a championship. The roster just wasn't good enough, and of course that's just one fan's opinion.

It's interesting the difference in the "expected wins" you mention vs. actual. Was it only coaching that led to under-performance? Was the roster not as good as the analytics predicted? Both I think.
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Nice post.
 

IheartRomo

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TwistedL0g1k said:
I really hope you are right about the roster! It's a different roster for 2020 though, and one I think looks better. Difficult time for a transition to a new staff though.

Purely conjecture, but I think the best coaching in the league adds maybe a couple of wins last season. Probably enough to get in the play-offs. But- I remain convinced that the team had no chance of winning a championship. The roster just wasn't good enough, and of course that's just one fan's opinion.

It's interesting the difference in the "expected wins" you mention vs. actual. Was it only coaching that led to under-performance? Was the roster not as good as the analytics predicted? Both I think.
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Well, by DVOA, the offense was ranked #2, defense #19, and ST #30. Of course there isn't a coaching DVOA stat, but I'd argue we were in the 28-32 category as far as scheme/coaching is concerned. With better coaching/ST, both of which are very attainable based on the offseason changes, there should be a noticeable difference in results.

Of course, a solid defense would help as well but that seems to have eluded us for 2 decades now.
 
JoeyBoy718

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It does show how little top talent we have on D compared to O. It's been like that for the past 10-15 years. We've always only had about one guy on D who would start on any team - D Ware for a long time, S Lee for some time, D Law for now. We've always had a bunch of talent people on O though.
 
Endzoneview

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uys, if you look at Garrett's entire coaching/playing (starting qb) track record is one of 8-8 or maybe a few games up but not more than 8-8 . I read article that I can't recall last year with Garrett's involvement it was something close to that- Point is

1. Nothing rises above leadership- if your leadership is mediocrity driven then you will have a mediocre team which you have seen that this is the story of the Garrett led Cowboys

2. Yes, it was also on the players to play and the did not play with consistency and often had penalties or made critical mistakes at exactly the wrong time as evidenced by last years team

3. Bad coaching decisions of coaching - The Cowboys have tried to use the "consistency" model of Belichek who coaches the coaches so Belichek does not hire outside the Patriots when looking for coaches, they train from within but that works when you have a coach like Belichek. Garrett was a one trick pony and it's shown this past off season when a majority of his "tree" are unemployed right now.

So we have talent, no doubting it but talent needs coaching , the simple plans of Garrett was a major problem last year and hopefully we have a decent coaching staff, time will tell
 
plasticman

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Minnesota has one of the best rosters and is another team that belongs there instead of Tampa.
 
starfan1

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plasticman said:
Minnesota has one of the best rosters and is another team that belongs there instead of Tampa.
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again guys this is 2020 projections and the addition of Brady and gronk gives them a bump.They also have a 20 sack guy . Now having said that there may be some teams that should be higher on the list.I think its interesting though
 
gimmesix

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75boyz said:
The one thing I can never truly quite understand is this same coach won Coach of the Year and 13 games with a 4th rd rookie HOF QB and yet that same coach, with the same QB doesn't quite reach that level of wins as this same QB who supposedly has mproved every year over the next 4 years.
So...

Did the Coach forget how to coach because supposedly the HOF QB improved every year and surely could win a few games 'despite' the Coach of the Year job done by the coach and performance by the QB during his rookie season. I mean right?

Didn't the QB win all those games despite the poor coaching?

OR did the team win all those games?

Or if they lost it was a team loss and if they won it was because of the QB?

What if the QB had poor stats but the team won?

What if the QB had good stats against poor teams and poor stats against good teams?

So when this supposedly legitimate Savior new coach fails with this same QB as previous coach, Is the new old response back to its a "team" loss because it cant be the coaching anymore, I mean right? Or do they just fire and hire another coach like the offensive coordinator maybe.

Just exactly where are the goal posts and today's narrative. It keeps getting harder to keep up.

One thing IS for certain, there Is no way in you know where that it will ever, ever, ever be the QBs fault around here.

A trick he probably learned from the owner.

Too funny. :)
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Garrett's problem is that his scheme/philosophy can't get past the first couple of rounds of the playoffs despite the talent that the team has because he needs to outtalent other teams at every position.

The Coach of the Year award was deserved for the team that was put together and winning with a rookie quarterback. There were things he and Linehan did well that year in getting the ball to Elliott and having Prescott rely a lot on underneath passes. It also helped that we played a weak schedule. However, his failures to use creativity or try to create mismatches meant that the talent could only take us so far when we went against teams with just as much talent.

I truly believe a better X's and O's coach would have had at least a couple of Super Bowl appearances (or at least NFC Championship Game appearances) with some of the teams we had. Yes, they would have still had to overcome defensive lapses, but you can look at our losses and all we needed was a tweak here or there on offense to advance in less than one TD losses to the Giants in 2007 (when Garrett was offensive coordinator), Packers in 2014 and Packers again in 2016. We needed to have an elite offense with the defenses we had, and Garrett was not the coach to make the offense elite.
 
75boyz

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gimmesix said:
Garrett's problem is that his scheme/philosophy can't get past the first couple of rounds of the playoffs despite the talent that the team has because he needs to outtalent other teams at every position.

The Coach of the Year award was deserved for the team that was put together and winning with a rookie quarterback. There were things he and Linehan did well that year in getting the ball to Elliott and having Prescott rely a lot on underneath passes. It also helped that we played a weak schedule. However, his failures to use creativity or try to create mismatches meant that the talent could only take us so far when we went against teams with just as much talent.

I truly believe a better X's and O's coach would have had at least a couple of Super Bowl appearances (or at least NFC Championship Game appearances) with some of the teams we had. Yes, they would have still had to overcome defensive lapses, but you can look at our losses and all we needed was a tweak here or there on offense to advance in less than one TD losses to the Giants in 2007 (when Garrett was offensive coordinator), Packers in 2014 and Packers again in 2016. We needed to have an elite offense with the defenses we had, and Garrett was not the coach to make the offense elite.
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You totally rock for replying to my rather long winded post. Nice observations regarding team defensive deficiencies as well as the coaching comments. Appreciate ya.
 
plasticman

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starfan1 said:
again guys this is 2020 projections and the addition of Brady and gronk gives them a bump.They also have a 20 sack guy . Now having said that there may be some teams that should be higher on the list.I think its interesting though
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I'm aware that these are 2020 projections just as I'm aware the Vikings will be returning from a 10-6 season with 6 Pro Bowlers, one is 1st Team All Pro.

Meanwhile, The Bucs will be returning from a 7-9 season with 3 Pro Bowlers. Adding Tom Brady, entering his 21st season after one of his worse performances in a non-suspended season is a debatable upgrade. We'll see about Gronk after not playing the entire 2019 season.

In order to justify the Buc's roster ranking, you would have to consider Brady's previous success projecting into 2020. Considering he is playing with a new team, showed obvious signs of decline in 2019, and the physical health of a 43 year old body, that is highly unlikely.

More likely, Brady has refused to acknowledge his decline and will go the way of a great quarterback selling tickets during his final unimpressive season. In doing so, he joins the ranks of Joe Namath, Bret Favre, Johnny Unitas, and Joe Montana.
 

Hardline

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IheartRomo said:
This is extremely shallow thinking. In your eyes, record in any given season correlates 100% with roster strength? The Jets finished 7-9. The Cowboys finished 8-8. In your view, that would tell you their rosters are very close in terms of strength?

Football is a small sample size game. Entire seasons can come down to single breaks in either direction as we saw last season. Would be incredibly foolish to think this roster isn't strong because of a very unusually poor record in tight games that has been proven to be something that almost always reverts back to normal in the following season.
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You are what your record says you are.
 
Tussinman

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cheyennes said:
TB five? I dont think so
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you must not follow other teams. Tampa Bay is a dark horse and has tons of talent

They have two all pro receivers, a good tight end, and they literally spent the off-season fixing the two major holes on offense which was getting a franchise left tackle and getting a quarterback that isn't going to throw 50 interceptions a year

they were riddled with injuries on the defensive side the first half of the season but when they started to get healthy in the second half they were putting up borderline top five defensive stats

Tampa is one of the most well-rounded teams in the NFL in terms of complete roster, they made really good moves in the offseason, and they have a well respected coach. Seeing them ranked 5th or 6th isn't a shocker to be honest
 
75boyz

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Tussinman said:
you must not follow other teams. Tampa Bay is a dark horse and has tons of talent

They have two all pro receivers, a good tight end, and they literally spent the off-season fixing the two major holes on offense which was getting a franchise left tackle and getting a quarterback that isn't going to throw 50 interceptions a year

they were riddled with injuries on the defensive side the first half of the season but when they started to get healthy in the second half they were putting up borderline top five defensive stats

Tampa is one of the most well-rounded teams in the NFL in terms of complete roster, they made really good moves in the offseason, and they have a well respected coach. Seeing them ranked 5th or 6th isn't a shocker to be honest
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Excellent post. I totally appreciate your positive view and opinion of another teams roster. I like to keep up with other NFL team talent and would like to think I have a pretty decent familiarity with rosters especially within our own division that I watch a little closer.
It's a Cowboys board and I'm a fan, but the natural bias shared at times can be extremely misleading if unfamiliar with the rest of the NFL.
Great post.
 

IheartRomo

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Hardline said:
You are what your record says you are.
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In terms of standings in that individual season, that’s absolutely correct. But it’d be very Garrett like to discount advanced stats when assessing your term and strategically planning out your team building next steps. Absolutely willfully ignorant to ignore them.
 
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