How good has the Offensive Line really been?

daboyzruleperiod said:

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What happened to Philly?

Per our Favorite PFF:
1. PHILADELPHIA EAGLES
When fully healthy, the Eagles' offensive line didn’t have a single weak link, and that is invaluable in a league where weak links are quickly exposed. All five starters — Jason Peters, Isaac Seumalo, Jason Kelce, Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson — graded among the top-10 players at their respective positions. Seumalo was the only one who graded outside the top-two players at his position. The most impressive performance on the line belongs to Brooks, who had the highest overall grade of any guard in the NFL after tearing his Achilles last postseason. His season was cut short by injury again last week, but his performance as the top player on the league’s top offensive line has been one of the better stories this season.
(They had us at #4.)

I understand a lot of folks don't care for their grading system, but how did Philly not even make it into the top ten?

SackMaster said:

Listening to some pundits this morning, and I hear the "well QB-X does not have Dak's offensive line" statement for the ump-teenth time, I start to think:

I get that Dak has had the benefit of a really good offensive line, but I think it is completely overblown on how good the line is.​

Here's my thoughts:

LT - Smith

All-Pro caliber player, but often injured and has never played all 16 games since Dak has been a Dallas Cowboy. The guy has missed 3 games EVERY year since 2016. His replacements? Well one was absolutely terrible, and the others have been mediocre at best. Arguably the most important position on the offensive line has not been as consistent as one would think the past 4 years.​

LG - Leary, Cooper, Williams

Leary is probably the best in this group, but was a borderline Pro-Bowler at best and outside 2013, was unable to start 16 games a season. Cooper, despite being a pet-cat of mine during the 2013 NFL draft, he suffered a broken leg during his rookie preseason and never really lived up to expectations. He was not terrible for the Cowboys his lone season, but was not great either. Then Williams is devisive to say the least, so I will leave it at that. In all 3 cases, the most game started by these 3 in a season is Cooper's 13 in the lone year as a Cowboy.​

C - Frederick, Looney

I do not have a single negative thing to say about Fredbeard's 2016 and 2017 seasons. He was arguably the best C in the NFL those two years. Then came the illness and Fredbeard was out a whole season and was clearly not the same in 2019. I don't blame him, as stuff happens. Looney seemed to do good, but as it has been pointed out, Looney was given a lot of help too. While I expect Looney to complete for the C spot post-Fredbeard, I would not expect him to win despite starting all 16 games 2018. I will be interesting to see.​

RG - Martin

All-Pro, one of the best in the NFL. Outside of a 2 game stint where he rested at the end of 2018 for a knee injury, nothing to complain about here. If he NEEDED to play those two games, I think he would have played and still been better than most NFL OGs.​

RT - Free, Collins

Personally, I think Free was better than what he was given credit for, but he was never a top OT in the NFL. In 2016, his 9th and final year in the league, he manned the spot and was about average before finally retiring in the offseason. Then there is Collins. If we had 2019 Collins in 2017 and 2018, then I don't think there would be much of a gripe with him, but man was he inconsistent his first two years at RT.​

So I have no issues with anyone saying that 2016 line of Adams-Leary-Frederick-Martin-Free was great. Free was probably the weakest link that year, and again, he was not nearly as bad as he was accused of being.

But after 2016? Ya, the lack of availability and/or ability started to hurt virtually every spot except RG. Again, still better than some teams out there, but hardly the "best oline in the league" material. Hell, they may have not been the best oline in the NFC East, but we don't hear much about that.

I apologize in advance when this thread morphs into a Dak debate thread. I hope this stays on target about the offensive line for the past few years, but I would almost be willing to bet a house I do not own on it will not stay that way for long.

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They sprung leaks over the last few years. 2017 was a debacle with Tyron out. 2018 our pass blocking really struggled with Looney and XSF at OC and LG. 2019 I thought was steadier, however Frederick wasnt Frederick.

I think we are in good shape though. We have actively added talent over the last few drafts. We have 3 draft picks that are going to compete for two positions in camp (along with Looney). I think thag bodes well

xwalker said:

The OL has not had a plus season since 2016.

OL coach Bill Callahan created a scheme that allowed Doug Free to be functional. He had Martin cheat closer to Free which allowed Free to over-set to the outside without a big worry of getting beat inside. In the run game they schemed to have Free blocking LBs and used other methods to block the DE. If Free did have to run block vs a DE it would be wall-off blocks where Free just had to get in the way to delay the DE.

Free gave up 9 sacks in 2016 but he had the knowledge of the scheme from being coached by Callahan who departed after 2014. Once Free and Leary departed after 2016, 3/5ths of the Callahan coached players were gone.

The best lineup since the Nineties was the 7 games in 2014 when Jermey Parnell started at RT. That included 2 playoff games. They had Leary at LG and the 3 All-Pros. Parnell allowed a total of 1 sack in his 7 starts and was a dominant power run blocker.

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.............Haven't been the same since he left. Callahan made sure his guys had the proper line splits. Colombo let that small detail slide....and it made all the difference.

xwalker said:

Fans won't believe it, but Connor Williams was probably the 3rd best player on the OL last season before he was out injured.

Fans want to see Larry Allen over-whelming power from OLinemen and don't appreciate great technical play. Only a few fans appreciated Stepnoski back in the day.

La'el has the physical ability to over-power defenders which fans love, but he was still making a large number of mistakes in run blocking last season.

Frederick in 2019

• Frederick was definitely off. His power seemed good but he often just couldn't get to the spot in time and even seemed to have slower reactions mentally.
• On some plays he still looked like his old self but there was a fairly extreme lack of consistency from a guy that had been one of the most consistent football players ever.
• He was still better than Looney in 2018. Even if Looney played at the same level as Frederick in 2019, Looney didn't make the other players better like Frederick has always done.
• Frederick's ability to make the calls and be like and on-field coach were as good as it gets. Like Zeke said, "Frederick is the smartest guy in the building".
  • I took Zeke's comments to mean that he thought Frederick was smarter than the coaches.

Connor Williams

• Connor Williams was a little inconsistent for the first 3 games but he was playing very well after that.
• His angles/timing in getting out to run block on the 2nd level were terrific.
• His ability to pick up and pass off stunting DL and bllitzers was also terrific.
• He tended to steer pass rushers wide much like an OT and fans think that means he was getting beat.
  • In reality if the pass rusher never comes within 2 yards of the QB then CW has done his job.
• His lack of power is also over-blown by fans and pseudo-media. When he can block from a balanced position, he has decent power even goal-line/short-yardage.
  • The lack of bulk/power was just an issue when he had to reach out from a non-ideal body position.
  • Tyron can reach out and toss a defender to the ground with 1 hand even when he is off-balance and reaching far outside his body. Most mortals can't do that.

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What's really funny about all this is the glorifying of Looney and Filo and the bashing of Williams!!!

SackMaster said:

Listening to some pundits this morning, and I hear the "well QB-X does not have Dak's offensive line" statement for the ump-teenth time, I start to think:

I get that Dak has had the benefit of a really good offensive line, but I think it is completely overblown on how good the line is.​

But after 2016? Ya, the lack of availability and/or ability started to hurt virtually every spot except RG. Again, still better than some teams out there, but hardly the "best oline in the league" material. Hell, they may have not been the best oline in the NFC East, but we don't hear much about that.

I apologize in advance when this thread morphs into a Dak debate thread. I hope this stays on target about the offensive line for the past few years, but I would almost be willing to bet a house I do not own on it will not stay that way for long.

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I've been say for a couple of years that there are people thinking this line is as good as the 2016 line and it hasn't been. It may be better than some, maybe more than half of them but they haven't been the best line since 2016.
.
.

fivetwos said:

Frederick was way off of his usual last season.

Not sure if it was a pure strength loss thing.

Martin seemed to take a step back also.

To be clear I mean in run blocking, pass protection was fine.

I dont know, the severe predictability could have had something to do with it.

We have some high potential guys, but the interior OL being dominant in run blocking is no longer a slam dunk...for now anyway.

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Well, the olines was ranked between 2nd and 4th best overall last year.
That's certainly good enough.

The eye test shows this group to be just inside the top 10 when healthy . When Tyron is playing hurt or not available we drop to middle of the pack fast and it affects the whole team .

Hoping the youngsters add some bulk and strength to sure this thing up . As much as I hate to say it We need to be looking for Tyrons replacement sooner than later before he leaves us Romoed

The 2016 Oline was talented and highly regarded around the league as the in the top tier if not the best. Injuries, scheme, and backup players certainly took their toll on its effectiveness. We'll see what the the new scheme does and how many starters play together to gel into what is needed.
The window of opportunity to field the same starters for several successful seasons is shrinking due to Free Agency and injury.

Tyron was playing at an all-pro level last year before his 40 million dollar QB shattered his ankle. Even with him rushing back into the line-up before he was healed he still finished as the 3rd best LT in the NFC. The first 3 games back from injury where rough (medicore game grades and lots of penalites) but he finished with high game grades in his last 6 games and only had a combined 1 holding penalty in those final 6 games (he basically started and ended the season at an extremely high level)

Williams finally had a good 2 game stretch but of course got injured again (3rd straight season of knee surgery, his 4th knee surgery total in those 3 years). I really don't understand the draft hype on him

Frederick did okay but is gone. Zack Martin finished 1st team all-pro AGAIN and ironically the only 2 all-pro worthy players at his position (Yanda and Brooks) aren't playing in 2020 so expect Martin to make all-pro team again for the 7th straight year

Collins was arguably the most controversial/mixed emotion of the 4 extensions last off-season but he played the best of the four. Great season

Tussinman said:

Tyron was playing at an all-pro level last year before his 40 million dollar QB shattered his ankle. Even with him rushing back into the line-up before he was healed he still finished as the 3rd best LT in the NFC. The first 3 games back from injury where rough (medicore game grades and lots of penalites) but he finished with high game grades in his last 6 games and only had a combined 1 holding penalty in those final 6 games (he basically started and ended the season at an extremely high level)

Williams finally had a good 2 game stretch but of course got injured again (3rd straight season of knee surgery, his 4th knee surgery total in those 3 years). I really don't understand the draft hype on him

Frederick did okay but is gone. Zack Martin finished 1st team all-pro AGAIN and ironically the only 2 all-pro worthy players at his position (Yanda and Brooks) aren't playing in 2020 so expect Martin to make all-pro team again for the 7th straight year

Collins was arguably the most controversial/mixed emotion of the 4 extensions last off-season but he played the best of the four. Great season

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Collins was far from the "best of the 4". He was the 4th or 5th best OLineman. He made many mistakes in run blocking.

Tyron didn't have a "shattered ankle". It was the dreaded "high ankle sprain" but he would be out for the season with a shattered ankle.

daboyzruleperiod said:

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Whose rank was this?

We have a really good OL when healthy. We used to be elite and some fans think if we aren't at that elite status then we suck but that is far from the truth.

xwalker said:

Collins was far from the "best of the 4". He was the 4th or 5th best OLineman. He made many mistakes in run blocking.

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Collins was arguably the 4th or 5th best RT in the entire league. Martin was the only offensive lineman that played better. D-law and Jaylon weren't even top 10 at there positions and Zeke was probably on par with Collins with Collins having the higher upside and the more team friendly contract (Collins contract was easily the best of the four)

First off, thanks everyone for sticking on topic. I was pleasantly surprised.

Second, in no way am I saying the oline is bad. I just am trying to point out when someone uses "well they have one of the best olines in the league" for a case against Dak, Zeke or whoever, I think that is false.

The oline is still really good (mostly), but I feel the oline excuse is exaggerated way too much.

Anyways, it's just one guy's opinion.

We went all in and invested the most of any team by far to try and build this great wall OL. And the results for the money have been dreadful for me. People see these first round picks and keep claiming this is some great OL year after year.

I'd love to see what past teams who have good success in the playoffs spent on their OL's.I'm pretty sure it is nowhere near ours. We were dead set on using 1st round picks for every position on the OL and it is backfiring. One has retired. The other has never ending back issue. One guy who was never injured now has been and took a step back. There is no way this is some great OL when one player goes out (T Smith), they turn to junk.

Tussinman said:

Collins was arguably the 4th or 5th best RT in the entire league. Martin was the only offensive lineman that played better. D-law and Jaylon weren't even top 10 at there positions and Zeke was probably on par with Collins with Collins having the higher upside and the more team friendly contract (Collins contract was easily the best of the four)

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Wrong.

darthseinfeld said:

They sprung leaks over the last few years. 2017 was a debacle with Tyron out. 2018 our pass blocking really struggled with Looney and XSF at OC and LG. 2019 I thought was steadier, however Frederick wasnt Frederick.

I think we are in good shape though. We have actively added talent over the last few drafts. We have 3 draft picks that are going to compete for two positions in camp (along with Looney). I think thag bodes well

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i thought it was clear how our pass blocking suffered and struggled under new OL coach Paul Alexander, whose method and scheme was so confusing and dysfunctional until internal infighting force an unusual mid-season
firing of an OL coach. Teams usual fire their OL coach after the season, but in Alexander's case, team sought
an immediate and drastic change to help save the season.

- in 2020, we'll have to see how the unit adapts to new OL coach Joe Philbin's scheme and system.
Since Packers were such a pass machine with Rodgers/McCarthy era, i initially wonder (worried ?) if we'd lose
"physical, mauling " imposing approach as Marc Columbo did, with a more finesse, position-blocking zone scheme vs Columbo's man-blocking scheme.

- i have to admit i loved how we pass blocked as a unit in 2019 under Columbo- , 2nd in entire NFL in least sacks allowed, that's sending a big performance statement, imo.
Thats a well coached up unit, even with an injured Tyson, and a lesser Fredrick.

But i also had to consider other elements with Philibin,
1)he has coached up some terrific quality, non-first round blockers,
2) Packers have long been a good pass blocking unit,
3) they've improvised with injury subs well,
4) and i believe and hope Philibin can implement a zone -stretch run scheme that can better utilize cut- back running lanes and edge plays -en route to more splash plays for the run game.

But the only thing i questioned with Columbo, as far as the scheme design of the run game, which
i thought was too simplistic, bland and too predictable - all we seem to do was run it up the gut. middle.
I understand the smash-maul mentality imposed, but i thought it left us too limited considering the talent
we possessed at both RB and in the OL unit.

SackMaster said:

Listening to some pundits this morning, and I hear the "well QB-X does not have Dak's offensive line" statement for the ump-teenth time, I start to think:

I get that Dak has had the benefit of a really good offensive line, but I think it is completely overblown on how good the line is.​

Here's my thoughts:

LT - Smith

All-Pro caliber player, but often injured and has never played all 16 games since Dak has been a Dallas Cowboy. The guy has missed 3 games EVERY year since 2016. His replacements? Well one was absolutely terrible, and the others have been mediocre at best. Arguably the most important position on the offensive line has not been as consistent as one would think the past 4 years.​

LG - Leary, Cooper, Williams

Leary is probably the best in this group, but was a borderline Pro-Bowler at best and outside 2013, was unable to start 16 games a season. Cooper, despite being a pet-cat of mine during the 2013 NFL draft, he suffered a broken leg during his rookie preseason and never really lived up to expectations. He was not terrible for the Cowboys his lone season, but was not great either. Then Williams is devisive to say the least, so I will leave it at that. In all 3 cases, the most game started by these 3 in a season is Cooper's 13 in the lone year as a Cowboy.​

C - Frederick, Looney

I do not have a single negative thing to say about Fredbeard's 2016 and 2017 seasons. He was arguably the best C in the NFL those two years. Then came the illness and Fredbeard was out a whole season and was clearly not the same in 2019. I don't blame him, as stuff happens. Looney seemed to do good, but as it has been pointed out, Looney was given a lot of help too. While I expect Looney to complete for the C spot post-Fredbeard, I would not expect him to win despite starting all 16 games 2018. I will be interesting to see.​

RG - Martin

All-Pro, one of the best in the NFL. Outside of a 2 game stint where he rested at the end of 2018 for a knee injury, nothing to complain about here. If he NEEDED to play those two games, I think he would have played and still been better than most NFL OGs.​

RT - Free, Collins

Personally, I think Free was better than what he was given credit for, but he was never a top OT in the NFL. In 2016, his 9th and final year in the league, he manned the spot and was about average before finally retiring in the offseason. Then there is Collins. If we had 2019 Collins in 2017 and 2018, then I don't think there would be much of a gripe with him, but man was he inconsistent his first two years at RT.​

So I have no issues with anyone saying that 2016 line of Adams-Leary-Frederick-Martin-Free was great. Free was probably the weakest link that year, and again, he was not nearly as bad as he was accused of being.

But after 2016? Ya, the lack of availability and/or ability started to hurt virtually every spot except RG. Again, still better than some teams out there, but hardly the "best oline in the league" material. Hell, they may have not been the best oline in the NFC East, but we don't hear much about that.

I apologize in advance when this thread morphs into a Dak debate thread. I hope this stays on target about the offensive line for the past few years, but I would almost be willing to bet a house I do not own on it will not stay that way for long.

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It's an elite offensive line that has suffered from a lack of offensive diversity and the inability to get out of playcalls and into the right ones at the line of scrimmage.

When healthy I think it is one of the best in the league. When starters drop so does the production. You lose Tyron, Martin and Frederick for a few games it shows in terms of poor production.