The “refs are out to get us” evidence is actually thin

LatinMind

iPhotoshop
Messages
17,430
Reaction score
11,554
Every year, during every Cowboys game, the cries of “These refs are out to get us”, or “Goodell has this crew paid off to get us” go out. But it does beg the question, Is this really true? What evidence do we have that we are getting hosed by the guys in stripes?

Looking at the number of total penalties called during the season is one way to look at the big picture of how often the Cowboys are being flagged during games compared to the rest of the league. Here’s a link to a pretty good free site to examine penalties called: https://www.nflpenalties.com/phase.php?year=2018

Here’s how the Cowboys stacked up last year when it came to penalties called against us:
  • The Cowboys were 21st in the NFL last year in total number of penalties called against us. In other words, 20 of the 32 teams in the NFL had more penalties called than we did.
  • We were ranked 10th in the league in offensive holding calls against us, which is in the top third. But here’s some perspective: We were called 25 times for offensive holding. Our opponents were called 25 times last year for offensive holding. Can’t say we were unequally called.
  • In a year when defensive holding was seemingly called constantly, the Cowboys were ranked 24th in number of defensive holding calls.
So looking at 2019 in the penalties called department, it looks like we weren’t penalized as much as most teams.
C2oZHDcWgAUN0N8

When you have plays like this happen you have to wonder. This play was actually in wide open space. How does a ref not call this? This literally cost the cowboys the game.
 

TexasBoys2288

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,774
Reaction score
2,511
Haha, I still say the Refs cheat the Cowboys, not to say they do not cheat other teams. Killing drives at the right time can make a big difference, ask the Saints.
 

Diehardblues

Well-Known Member
Messages
55,143
Reaction score
36,328
The Cowboys success is good financially for the league but Elite players get the calls as their success is good for the league.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,844
Reaction score
16,032
C2oZHDcWgAUN0N8

When you have plays like this happen you have to wonder. This play was actually in wide open space. How does a ref not call this? This literally cost the cowboys the game.

You can't tell a holding call with a still shot anymore than you can tell pass interference with a still shot. Both are motion penalties and thus you have to see the motion of the supposed foul. An OL is also permitted to have his hands "inside the opponent's frame" and "to work for and maintain his position against an opponent" per the rules. Interesting that David Irving posted this himself because during game play, he didn't complain to officials he was held as Rodgers was rolled out and he got up off the ground to jog around to watch Rodgers throw.
 

LatinMind

iPhotoshop
Messages
17,430
Reaction score
11,554
You can't tell a holding call with a still shot anymore than you can tell pass interference with a still shot. Both are motion penalties and thus you have to see the motion of the supposed foul. An OL is also permitted to have his hands "inside the opponent's frame" and "to work for and maintain his position against an opponent" per the rules. Interesting that David Irving posted this himself because during game play, he didn't complain to officials he was held as Rodgers was rolled out and he got up off the ground to jog around to watch Rodgers throw.


jst watch the play. as he;d being held 70 even reaches across his body and pulls across. They did this the whole game and wasnt called. Thats the reason atlantas coaches called the packers out in the media to puts refs on notice.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,844
Reaction score
16,032


jst watch the play. as he;d being held 70 even reaches across his body and pulls across. They did this the whole game and wasnt called. Thats the reason atlantas coaches called the packers out in the media to puts refs on notice.


I've seen this play over and over again in debating it with folks. This angle is not the best for seeing holding anyway. If there's video from the vantage point of where that still pic was taken, that would be the best look since it's from where the officials view the line and you can see any left/right action. But first off, he's not even being held when 70 joins the fray, so if anything was to be called, it was on 70. So did 70 "materially restrict" Irving? That's the debatable part because you are allowed to restrict somewhat, the same way a DB is allowed to put a hand on a receiver downfield and not have PI called.

70 reacted late and Irving was passing him so he did reach out and put an arm across him which from that video, looks like he caught Irving's forearm which is why you see Irving's hand go up in the air. But 70 doesn't stay on him from the side and goes around the back where you can see 70's right hand push his man and Irving to the left which is where Irving was already going before Rodgers rolled out right. The forearm hit (again, crappy video for detail so I'm curious how you see 70 "pull across") did probably tip Irving's balance which will happen when you're already engaged with another pushing you in the direction you're going already. So that takes care of the "alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit" aspect of holding because Irving's path was left of the initial blocker the whole way. Even by the holding action standards of "hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him" a momentary hit and then going around back to push doesn't meet the criteria, marginal at very best.

And again,why didn't Irving complain during play if it was so obvious? Looks to me like fans complained, sent him a picture and then he posts it like, "Oh yeah. I was held on that play." Does that pass a smell test to you?
 

xwalker

Well-Known Member
Messages
56,925
Reaction score
64,368
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Every year, during every Cowboys game, the cries of “These refs are out to get us”, or “Goodell has this crew paid off to get us” go out. But it does beg the question, Is this really true? What evidence do we have that we are getting hosed by the guys in stripes?

Looking at the number of total penalties called during the season is one way to look at the big picture of how often the Cowboys are being flagged during games compared to the rest of the league. Here’s a link to a pretty good free site to examine penalties called: https://www.nflpenalties.com/phase.php?year=2018

Here’s how the Cowboys stacked up last year when it came to penalties called against us:
  • The Cowboys were 21st in the NFL last year in total number of penalties called against us. In other words, 20 of the 32 teams in the NFL had more penalties called than we did.
  • We were ranked 10th in the league in offensive holding calls against us, which is in the top third. But here’s some perspective: We were called 25 times for offensive holding. Our opponents were called 25 times last year for offensive holding. Can’t say we were unequally called.
  • In a year when defensive holding was seemingly called constantly, the Cowboys were ranked 24th in number of defensive holding calls.
So looking at 2019 in the penalties called department, it looks like we weren’t penalized as much as most teams.
one thing I will say is the quality of refereeing in the NFL has dropped in my opinion. But I don’t think any one team has been the beneficiary of the refs bad calls. This is a problem the NFL needs to address. It’s not a fairness issue as much as a quality issue.


  • Conspiracy
    • I have never believed that the refs as a whole were conspiring to "get" the Cowboys.
      • The issue is that individual refs are biased.
        • There is a high percentage of NFL refs from the North East with California 2nd.
        • In college football, the highest percentage of refs are from the South.
  • Quality
    • As your last statement indicated, there is a huge problem with quality.
    • The quality is better in college because college refs are not unionized.
      • There are less politics in college with regards to the refs.
    • NFL refs (The Union) oppose changes such as improvements in the replay process, endzone pylon cameras, etc.
      • The replay officials which were in the booth in the past and are now back at the NFL game studio are not in the Union.
  • Why Penalty Stats have minimal value:
    • NFL refs are constrained to limit the total number of penalties they call per game and are downgraded if they have too many games where the penalties were loop-sided (i.e. Way more on 1 team than the other).
      • That causes the stats of total penalties called per season to have minimal value in regards to analyzing the refs.
    • The key to penalties is when they are called. If the penalty calls back a TD, then that penalty has drastically more influence on the game than a penalty on 1st down at mid-field.
      • Next are penalties that call back a 3rd down conversion or a penalty on the defense that nullifies a sack or INT.
    • In order to avoid getting scrutiny for loop-sided games, refs will find reasons late in games to even up the numbers.
      • More late flags on the team that was under penalized early.
      • Less flags on the team that was over-penalized early. Fans don't care if the team that is winning by multiple scores gets over-penalized late in games.
    • Early game flags over an entire season tend to affect the outcome of games more than late game flags.
      • It seems like the opposite because controversial flags are normally near the end of games but teams that lead at half-time by a certain number of points normally win.
 

Kaiser

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,628
Reaction score
28,430
    • Early game flags over an entire season tend to affect the outcome of games more than late game flags.
      • It seems like the opposite because controversial flags are normally near the end of games but teams that lead at half-time by a certain number of points normally win.

I've thought for years that there is a pattern of the refs making bad calls in the second quarter of games to keep the score close, so fans don't tune out at halftime, which keeps ad revenue to the league at the max level.

I posted a thread with specific examples of the last couple of seasons where he happened in our favor against the Colts and against us against the Bucs. It happens way too often and are too few blowout games where fans tune out. The blowout games now are still close at halftime and there is almost always key penalties to keep it close.
 

xwalker

Well-Known Member
Messages
56,925
Reaction score
64,368
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
I've thought for years that there is a pattern of the refs making bad calls in the second quarter of games to keep the score close, so fans don't tune out at halftime, which keeps ad revenue to the league at the max level.

I posted a thread with specific examples of the last couple of seasons where he happened in our favor against the Colts and against us against the Bucs. It happens way too often and are too few blowout games where fans tune out. The blowout games now are still close at halftime and there is almost always key penalties to keep it close.

Agree.

I have zero doubts that they are pressured to keep the score close if possible.
 

Mannix

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,659
Reaction score
10,782
------- But the saints and rams non call was the worst I can remember seeing

I may be alone here....but there is ONE angle of that play, which appears to show that they poorly thrown ball has already passed by the receivers hands BEFORE he was hit....I've seen it many times over, and it truly looks as if the call non-call could actually be justified. Had the ball been better thrown and been closer to his hands, we may have actually been able to see it reach the sidelines prior to contact.
 

Hagman

Put Niland and Green in the ROH
Messages
3,322
Reaction score
7,765
So....hijack an account and post on the most popular Cowboys forum that the refs are not biased against Dallas? Well played NFL refs, well played indeed.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,865
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
C2oZHDcWgAUN0N8

When you have plays like this happen you have to wonder. This play was actually in wide open space. How does a ref not call this? This literally cost the cowboys the game.
What we have to realize is every team sees occasional plays like this where fans wonder how in the world the refs miss the call. As for costing the Cowboys the game, one play never does that. It may have been one of the plays that most contributed to the loss, but every team has to overcome obstacles to win games, including, sometimes, a bad or missed call.
 

LatinMind

iPhotoshop
Messages
17,430
Reaction score
11,554
What we have to realize is every team sees occasional plays like this where fans wonder how in the world the refs miss the call. As for costing the Cowboys the game, one play never does that. It may have been one of the plays that most contributed to the loss, but every team has to overcome obstacles to win games, including, sometimes, a bad or missed call.

Like i said, Falcons coach spent the whole week making it a point to bring up how much the packers were holding.

And the Cowboys didnt have a chance to overcome anything. The very next play GB kicked the winning FG as time ran out. Im wondering if you even watched the game to not know this and to type that.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,865
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Like i said, Falcons coach spent the whole week making it a point to bring up how much the packers were holding.

And the Cowboys didnt have a chance to overcome anything. The very next play GB kicked the winning FG as time ran out. Im wondering if you even watched the game to not know this and to type that.
Overcoming obstacles isn't just about what happens after encountering the obstacle. There was a lot of game before that play. The entirety of the game wasn't that one play.

And you are fooling yourself if you don't think there are plays or even games where fans of other teams feel their team got screwed by refs too.

As Cowboy fans, we watch Cowboy games more often than games of any other team, and we react with more emotion to what happens with the Cowboys than with any other team, and some fans don't realize that's why these kinds of moments seem more prominent than with other teams. That's a perception though, and fans who are passionate about other teams can be prone to the same kind of perception about their teams.
 

LatinMind

iPhotoshop
Messages
17,430
Reaction score
11,554
Overcoming obstacles isn't just about what happens after encountering the obstacle. There was a lot of game before that play. The entirety of the game wasn't that one play.

And you are fooling yourself if you don't think there are plays or even games where fans of other teams feel their team got screwed by refs too.

As Cowboy fans, we watch Cowboy games more often than games of any other team, and we react with more emotion to what happens with the Cowboys than with any other team, and some fans don't realize that's why these kinds of moments seem more prominent than with other teams. That's a perception though, and fans who are passionate about other teams can be prone to the same kind of perception about their teams.
Did that one play end the game?
 

Plankton

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,005
Reaction score
17,889
Find a team whose fans don't complain that the refs are against them. It's as common as a unicorn.
 

JoeKing

Diehard
Messages
35,471
Reaction score
30,977
I don't believe the refs are out to get the Cowboys. It's just a coincidence their games include a slight uptick in bad calls against them at inopportune times. :rolleyes:
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,865
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Did that one play end the game?
It doesn't matter. That one play was not the only opportunity in the entire 60 minutes of the game to make things happen for the team. If the very last play of the game was the only play that mattered in a game then there would be no reason to play the entire game.

And, again, it's silly to act as if those kinds of plays never happen to other teams.
 

Mannix

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,659
Reaction score
10,782
NO WAY the Dez catch gets reversed if it were a GB Receiver....even if the game was in Arlington.
 
Top