Twitter: Trysten vs Neville

buybuydandavis · Jun 30, 2020

stasheroo said:
The most important attribute will be between the ears.

That does seem where Hill lacks it. Same with Taco. And Rico.

Conscientiousness is a huge predictor of success in life.

armadillooutlaw · Jun 30, 2020

Both have the needed God-given talent to be good players.
Gallimore has skilled hands as a pass rusher and excellent athleticism for a guy his size.
As a 3T I don't think he'll have much of a problem against the run.
Hill has that lightning first step and good size, he was just raw as can be
and needs to take to this coaching staff well in order to get playing time.

Whyjerry · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Antwaun Woods was "sent home" at the same time for the same reason as Hill. Nobody has ever said that Woods was lazy.

Fans just love to find any reason to criticize a player or coach or owner that they don't like.

Jerry did not say that Hill was Lollygagging. Jerry generically answered a question about Hill by saying that if players put in the required attention to detail, work on technique, etc. that the player will eventually show up in games but that if a player is lollygagging that it won't have a good outcome.

FYI, Dez was late more than any player in Cowboys history and Garrett never sent him home.

Yeah Jerry and Jason ran a beacon of responsibility. All those playoffs wins. Should be emulated throughout the league.

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

alicetooljam said:
I dont think anyone really disputes this, but the 2 players have been trending in different directions. Hill showed early promise in college and then disappointed there late and since being here. Gallimore started football late, was raw from Canada, displayed leadership qualities (defense captain) late in college. Time will tell, but my money is on Gallimore at this point, though I would be thrilled to see them both become monsters.

I would also put money on Gallimore at this point considering that Hill barely played in 2019; however, as of the time of each pick the risk/reward was similar for both players.

I don't have any vested interest in defending Hill. My interest is in laughing at "fan narratives".

Fans/media can take 1 or 2 minor issues with a player and blow them up into extremes.

On the flip side, fans can overlook extremely negative issues with players that they like.

Dez was a terrible human and terrible teammate but most fans loved him and defended him regardless.

Most Cowboys fans were always going to hate Jeff Heath regardless. They hated him because the narrative started in 1 game his rookie season where the secondary got torched by Calvin Johnson.

Sometimes there are dueling narratives. Some fans think the Cowboys have the best LBs in the NFL. Others think Jaylon is horrible and couldn't start for their local High School team.

There is the "Dak has terrible accuracy" narrative. It was exaggerated from the beginning and then those that want to continue the narrative will ignore all evidence that Dak was very accurate in 2019 and had good accuracy in 2018.

buybuydandavis · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
FYI, Dez was late more than any player in Cowboys history and Garrett never sent him home.

Maybe he should have sent Dez home. By most accounts, while Dez could play as hard as anyone, he didn't always, and especially didn't prepare as hard off the field.

Dez had a few great years, but most of the story on Dez's career is opportunity wasted for lack of diligence and conscientiousness.

StarBoyz83 · Jun 30, 2020

Hopefully they both work out. They will be needed soon.

cern · Jun 30, 2020

The cowboys seem to have a direct link to lincoln riley and no doubt got his feedback on neville. (Lamb, too) size of the dog, or fight in the dog?

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

buybuydandavis said:
Maybe he should have sent Dez home. By most accounts, while Dez could play as hard as anyone, he didn't always, and especially didn't prepare as hard off the field.

Dez had a few great years, but most of the story on Dez's career is opportunity wasted for lack of diligence and conscientiousness.

Not disciplining Dez set the tone for how players perceived Garrett.

buybuydandavis · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
I'm not predicting that Hill will or won't succeed. I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of the narrative that has developed is just made up by fans/media. All coaches have said he has a "high motor" but fans continue to claim that he is lazy.

Everybody knew that Hill would take more time than average to adapt to the NFL. A DT with his measurable(s) that didn't have drug or criminal issues and didn't have injury issues, would normally be a 1st round pick unless the player was expected to be slow to develop.

Garrett/Marinelli were a bad combination. Marinelli needs a head coach with an over-bearing personality that will demand that he adjust.

The worry with Hill isn't laziness on the field as much as the laziness off it. The lack of diligence.

Whether that's fair or not, a high motor on the field doesn't bear on low diligence off of it.

buybuydandavis · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Not disciplining Dez set the tone for how players perceived Garrett.

I was embarrassed for Dez and the WR coach on that video from their position group meeting. WR coach totally pushed around by Dez.

For years I expected that Garrett at least was a decent team manager. Turns out he was just a good boss manager.

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

Cowboys22 said:
My argument is based on what my eyes relayed to my brain not some fan narrative. I saw him suck and then I saw him suck some more and when it all was done, all I saw was him sucking. I don't care about what happened before or during. When you suck, it doesn't really matter why, does it?

Did you watch all snaps that Hill played in both the preseason and regular season?

I've watched all of his snaps at least 5 times each.

For the regular season that includes 3 camera angles (The broadcast camera angle and the 2 camera angles from the coaches film).

It is highly likely that you saw a couple of bad plays in the preseason and decided that he "sucked".

Tell us very specifically what he did that "sucked".

Sydla · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
It is comical that the majority of fans like or love the Gallimore pick but hated the Hill pick.

Based strictly on game footage, they are very similar players in many ways.

Both are very quick and projected as 3tech pass rushing type DTs but both played more snaps in college at the 1tech or 0tech spots.

Both played somewhat opposite of the general style of players aligned at their positions (specific to their final college seasons).

Gallimore played a 3tech pass rushing style while most often aligning as a 1tech.

Hill was moved to 3tech in his final college season but played more of a 1 or 0 tech style.

Because that chart doesn't highlight another reason why people had an issue with Hill's pick. People had questions about his work ethic and issues between the head that cropped up at UCF. That's a big reason people had an issue with the pick. Numerous reports from the beat guys showed that there were issues with Hill during the season as well.

Gallimore wasn't a reach at his pick either in the 3rd. Hill was a reach for need in the 2nd.

It's really not comical at all why people liked the Gallimore pick more than Hill.

PS - He had two issues with meetings. He fell asleep during a speech from Isaiah Thomas and Thomas called him out in the meeting. He also showed up late for a meeting and was sent home by Garrett. This is on top of issues he had with coaches at UCF after a coaching change during his time there. So to act like there weren't/aren't red flags with Hill off the field is simply just burying one's head in the sand. Again, that doesn't mean he can't make things right and become a good player but to act like he has zero issues off the field is just erroneous.

Sydla · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Tell us very specifically what he did that "sucked".

In fairness, the coaches also thought he kind of stunk. He couldn't get active despite not having a bunch of studs in front of him along the DT depth chart and he only got active due to injuries. It's not like we couldn't have used a good DT in the rotation last year.

I don't know why people struggle to admit reality here............... Hill struggled a lot last year both on and off the field. Questions about his work ethic and maturity leading up to the draft and post draft surfaced in his rookie year in 2019.

Is it too soon to just write him off? Sure. But the reality is that the odds aren't in his favor at this point that he's going to turn it around and become a real productive player for us. If you put a gun to my head and told me to pick one - Gallimore or Hill - I'd easily pick Gallimore as the one more likely to succeed at this point.

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

buybuydandavis said:
I was embarrassed for Dez and the WR coach on that video from their position group meeting. WR coach totally pushed around by Dez.

For years I expected that Garrett at least was a decent team manager. Turns out he was just a good boss manager.

Yes, that defined what was wrong with the team during the Garrett era.

There was another instance in the All or Nothing series that was also embarrassing with regards to Dez.

Then rookie Jourdan Lewis refused to back down from Dez in practice the way that most young unknown DBs had done over the years.

Dez was completely turned upside down mentally because of it and he continued to stomp around like a 5 year old child during the after practice speech by Garrett.

Meanwhile, J.Lewis was cool as a cucumber.

I think Dez irritates me because he is the poster-child for the problems with the Wade and Garrett eras (He was drafted during Wade's tenure and didn't get the comeuppance that he would have under Parcells or Jimmy).

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

Sydla said:
In fairness, the coaches also thought he kind of stunk. He couldn't get active despite not having a bunch of studs in front of him along the DT depth chart and he only got active due to injuries. It's not like we couldn't have used a good DT in the rotation last year.

I don't know why people struggle to admit reality here............... Hill struggled a lot last year both on and off the field. Questions about his work ethic and maturity leading up to the draft and post draft surfaced in his rookie year in 2019.

Is it too soon to just write him off? Sure. But the reality is that the odds aren't in his favor at this point that he's going to turn it around and become a real productive player for us. If you put a gun to my head and told me to pick one - Gallimore or Hill - I'd easily pick Gallimore as the one more likely to succeed at this point.

I did not say that Hill should have been active or that he should have started.

Much of what "surfaced" was made up and/or exaggerated by people due to confirmation bias.

It is rarely ever reported when non big name players get "sent home". Even when Parcells was the HC those minor infractions were rarely ever reported by the media.

It was reported about Hill because the local media loves to feed the narrative. They know that fans will jump on a negative story about Hill and therefore report it. They also know that nobody would care if Joe Jackson got sent home and therefore those stories don't get reported..unless you believe that zero players other than Hill and Woods were sent home during all of 2019.

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

Sydla said:
Because that chart doesn't highlight another reason why people had an issue with Hill's pick. People had questions about his work ethic and issues between the head that cropped up at UCF. That's a big reason people had an issue with the pick. Numerous reports from the beat guys showed that there were issues with Hill during the season as well.

Gallimore wasn't a reach at his pick either in the 3rd. Hill was a reach for need in the 2nd.

It's really not comical at all why people liked the Gallimore pick more than Hill.

PS - He had two issues with meetings. He fell asleep during a speech from Isaiah Thomas and Thomas called him out in the meeting. He also showed up late for a meeting and was sent home by Garrett. This is on top of issues he had with coaches at UCF after a coaching change during his time there. So to act like there weren't/aren't red flags with Hill off the field is simply just burying one's head in the sand. Again, that doesn't mean he can't make things right and become a good player but to act like he has zero issues off the field is just erroneous.

The NFL.com rankings are not perfect but they're not going to vary radically from the general consensus of draft media rankings.

NFL.com Relative to All Prospects
Hill: 62
Gallimore: 129

Brugler Relative to All Prospects
Hill: 91
Gallimore: 82

If Hill was "over-drafted" relative to general expectations it was by 1 round at the very most.

Alexander · Jun 30, 2020

If it comes down to mental fortitude, I am placing my money on Gallimore.

Trysten Hill just seems mentally weak. In a big way.

davidariust24 · Jun 30, 2020

Hill will be fine if he can get motivated. Maybe one of these new coaches can help motivate him.

xwalker · Jun 30, 2020

Sydla said:
Because that chart doesn't highlight another reason why people had an issue with Hill's pick. People had questions about his work ethic and issues between the head that cropped up at UCF. That's a big reason people had an issue with the pick. Numerous reports from the beat guys showed that there were issues with Hill during the season as well.

Gallimore wasn't a reach at his pick either in the 3rd. Hill was a reach for need in the 2nd.

It's really not comical at all why people liked the Gallimore pick more than Hill.

PS - He had two issues with meetings. He fell asleep during a speech from Isaiah Thomas and Thomas called him out in the meeting. He also showed up late for a meeting and was sent home by Garrett. This is on top of issues he had with coaches at UCF after a coaching change during his time there. So to act like there weren't/aren't red flags with Hill off the field is simply just burying one's head in the sand. Again, that doesn't mean he can't make things right and become a good player but to act like he has zero issues off the field is just erroneous.

Based on game footage Hill and Gallimore are more similar than different. Hill was a very good college player. Memphis with Tony Pollard scored 41 points vs UCF in the 2018 AAC championship game but struggled to do anything when Hill was on the field. Of the 41 points, only 10 were with Hill on the field and the TD came after the UCF offense fumbled and gave the ball to Memphis with less than 20 yards to score. Memphis ran to the far side away from him when they scored that TD.

Both college D-Coordinators and Marinelli said that Hill was a "high motor" player and that he practiced hard.

When asked if Hill was not putting in the required effort, Marinelli reiterated "That's not the problem. He practices hard. He has the want-to and the effort, but he is just not getting it".

Hill and Woods were sent home for being late a few days after Hill was called out in the meeting by Isaiah Thomas. Garrett didn't see if Hill was really asleep in the meeting but Garrett was embarrassed and waited for Hill to do something that he could punish him for and made certain to make it public. Seriously, how often did you ever hear of Garrett sending players home. Players were likely late on a regular basis during Garrett's tenure but having Isaiah Thomas call Hill out forced Garrett to do something, especially when he knew he was on thin ice and on the last year of his contract.

It is like I've tried to explain to some people about drinking and driving. Even if you're not over the limit and have only had 1 beer, if you're in an accident and somebody is injured or killed, the prosecutor will convince the jury that the wreck happened because you were drinking. The exact amount of alcohol in your system won't matter because it's the opinion of jurors, not the details of the law that are going to decide your fate.

ColoradoCowboy · Jun 30, 2020

xwalker said:
Trysten Hill

The problem with Hill has never been lack of effort.

The problem has been difficultly adapting to change and implemented the exact techniques the coaches are trying to get him to implement.

His 1st college coaching staff loved him as player and described him as a "high motor" player.

His 2nd college D-Coordinator also loved his abilities and "high motor". (The 2nd Head Coach didn't like him).

Marinelli said repeatedly that Hill was a "high motor" player in practice but just wasn't implementing the style/techniques that they were coaching him to use.

The basic issue is that both the 2nd college DC and Marinelli wanted him to be a pass rushing 3tech but Hill had been coached to be a run defending 3-4 NT by his original college coaches.

Fans jumped on the narrative that he is lazy because of 1 incident where he and another player were sent home for something that happened in a meeting (Either not paying attention or falling asleep).

What fans fail to realize is that some of the most intense on-the-field players in NFL history were not very good in the classroom (Charles Haley...).

Hill showed great effort in the preseason games and played as many or more snaps than any of the DLinemen.

His biggest issue was that he had no clue how to play vs Zone Run Blocking (Unfortunately neither did Marinelli...).

They had him practice at 3tech all off-season and that's where he played in the preseason games.

In the games he did play during the season, they primarily played him at 1tech.

Overall he looked decent when he did play during the season.

He had some quality snaps on run plays where he got a good push on the OL and made the tackle.

He had one play where he almost hit the QB before the handoff to the RB.

He had actually penetrated to that depth before the handoff but was about a foot too far to the side.

That play showed a physical ability that very few 300+ pound players possess.

The question with Hill is whether he can "Take Coaching".

Marinelli was "old school" but he often seemed to speak in riddles and seemed a bit cryptic at times.

New DL coach Jim Tomsula is more of a Caveman. The season he was Head Coach for the 49ers (2015) I nicknamed him Caveman in discussions here at CZ.

His message to players will be very literal based on his press conferences as 49ers HC. He won't be cryptic or nuanced.

Despite being a Caveman, Tomsula has been regarded as a "players coach" and in tune with modern players need to check social media and those types of issues.

Much like Wade Phillips, Tomsula is a quality defensive coach but should never have been a Head Coach.

Twitter: Trysten vs Neville

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What's it going to be then, eh?

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