Twitter: Trysten vs Neville

Kaiser

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Hill just needs a light switch.

Or a cattle prod. Time will tell, I don't believe in judging OL or DL in their first year, IMO the real evaluation starts this year. The "wasted draft pick" was said about DLaw here one year after he was drafted. And I was one of the people who didn't like trading up to get him but now taking him outside the top ten picks looks like a steal.
 

Sydla

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What many who flame Trysten Hill did not realize is that the early problems he had with coaches at
Central Florida he actually tried his best to resolve it by transfering and starting anew at Nebraska
where his previous coach left for,.. but UCF actually stopped that plan and left him all the more discouraged
and disgruntled.

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/201...ysten-hills-bad-blood-with-new-coaches-at-ucf

https://www.sportsmediapass.com/2019/01/13/ucf-2018-season-post-mortem/

This may explain Trysten Hill's bad blood with new coaches at UCF

By waldoputty on May 2, 2019, 8:51pm CDT

not sure if this totally explains the bad blood between Hill and the new coaches at UCF, but according to: https://www.sportsmediapass.com/2019/01/13/ucf-2018-season-post-mortem/


"Heupel deserves a lot of credit. He was able to limit the amount of disruption while starting to integrate his philosophy into the program. Attrition was surprisingly light. Backup quarterback Noah Vedral left to return to his home state of Nebraka, which didn’t surprise anyone. Other players like Trysten Hill tried to follow, but the school was able to block the transfers. Vedral was willing to drop his scholarship to go to Nebraka. Other players were not. This helped keep the roster largely intact."

it seems Heupel prevented Hill's scholarship to transfer to Nebraska or whichever school Trysten was trying to transfer to...

And if this was a one off thing, sure. But it was also reported he had an attitude issue here in Dallas too. So the reality is the kid has to get his head straight if he wants to become the player the team hopes.

I am not sure why so many here have an issue with this reality.
 

Sydla

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No, you're proving my point.

You are now citing speculation as fact. Beat writers were speculating that the Cowboys were frustrated with Hill. The beat writers appeal to ongoing narratives. They know that people like you will take anything they say as fact as long as it fits the narrative. People like you are the reason the people like Skip Bayless make millions per year for appealing to fan narratives.

No coach or any non-fan or non-media has said that Hill has a bad attitude. Marinelli was asked on camera multiple times about Hill. The worst thing that he said was "He better be on time next time". Marinelli made it very clear that the issue with Hill was not attitude or work ethic. Everything points to it being some type of attention deficit type problem. What else would Marinelli's comment "He has the want-to and the work ethic, but he just isn't getting it" mean?

LOL. So the best writers were lying or making things up?

I mean we have two documented cases of Hill screwing up in meetings, on top of the fact he had a documented attitude issue for part of his time at UCF.

There is a pattern here that you want to ignore because you tend to just think everything is peachy in Cowboys land. Marinelli isn’t also going to trash a kid in the press, especially a kid he went to bat for and why we took him in the 2nd in the first place.

Hill has talent. Hill also has to get his attitude in check if he’s going to reach his potential. There is zero wrong with saying that.
 

AsthmaField

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The lazy narrative bothers me too, because effort doesn’t seem to be an issue for Hill.

However, there does seem to be some problem(s) for Hill, because the guy barely saw the field in his rookie season. Perhaps he’s a slow learner or has a learning disability. Maybe he just has a difficult personality and sulks a lot. Or is it just that his technique reverts back to his initial DT training when the bullets are flying?

I remember him being called a “Bull in a china shop” in a pre-draft writeup. Perhaps he plays out of control and Marinelli couldn’t trust him to not blow his assignment. Leave a gaping hole in run defense, and coaches aren’t going to care how explosive you are, they won’t play you much.

We just don’t know. What we do know though is that in 2019 he got precious few snaps in a defensive line rotation that really could have used a guy with his kind of explosion and ability to disrupt. His first step explosion is among the best in football, and that is very, very high on my personal list of what I want in a defensive tackle. There are guys that weigh 30 pounds less than Hill that can’t even dream of getting into the backfield as quickly as him.

Trystan has a ton of potential to be a disruptor to offenses, and what he could bring to the defense is incredibly valuable.

Of course, the problem is that if things don’t click for him and he doesn’t improve on his ability to do what the coaches ask of him, he will be just another sad case of unfulfilled potential. At this point, I’d say it’s 50/50 on him either being a bust or turning into a very good player. A second round pick that is a coin flip probability to hit isn’t exactly what we want, but that’s where we are with Hill.

His effort and desire to play isn’t a problem though, I agree with that.

Here are a couple of guys from The Draft Network and what they say specifically about his effort and playing to the whistle:

Marino:

Effort
- One of the most urgent football players I have ever seen. Plays every snap like his life depends on it. Always pursues the football at a full sprint. Gets knocked down and immediately pops up looking for the football. More technique is needed to take advantage of his effort and turn it into consistent play,asking.

Play Speed - There’s no doubt that he plays fast with insane urgency but it can be to his detriment and he’ll run right out of his rush lanes and run fits. Creates levels in the run game by getting too far up the field.

Ledyard:

Competitive Toughness - Part of a heavy rotation, but played unbelievably hard when he was on the field. Ridiculous hustle in every game to attempt to chase down runners away from his gap. Plays with reckless abandon and physicality. Chirps too.

Range - Despite elite hustle, doesn't have great range and speed is average for the position. Will make plays with his effort that some more rangy defensive tackles wouldn't consider attempting. Short-area quickness is impressive, some of his tackles for loss involved quick lateral movement.


https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/trysten-hill



Anyway, the guy isn’t lazy, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a problem. We all hope that the new staff manages to fix whatever the issue is, but at this point, I’ll have to see it before I get excited at all about what he can be. If he played up to his traits and abilities, he will be a hell of a player. What he does have going for him is that the entire defense disappointed last year and frankly, was a mess. I don’t see any reason not to give him at least some kind of break for that.

If not? Well that’s why they drafted Gallimore. I’m greedy though... I want both to hit.
 
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BAT

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The lazy narrative bothers me too, because effort doesn’t seem to be an issue for Hill.

However, there does seem to be some problem(s) for Hill, because the guy barely saw the field in his rookie season. Perhaps he’s a slow learner or has a learning disability. Maybe he just has a difficult personality and sulks a lot. Or is it just that his technique reverts back to his initial DT training when the bullets are flying?

I remember him being called a “Bull in a china shop” in a pre-draft writeup. Perhaps he plays out of control and Marinelli couldn’t trust him to not blow his assignment. Leave a gaping hole in run defense, and coaches aren’t going to care how explosive you are, they won’t play you much.

We just don’t know. What we do know though is that in 2019 he got precious few snaps in a defensive line rotation that really could have used a guy with his kind of explosion and ability to disrupt. His first step explosion is among the best in football, and that is very, very high on my personal list of what I want in a defensive tackle. There are guys that weigh 30 pounds less than Hill that can’t even dream of getting into the backfield as quickly as him.

Trystan has a ton of potential to be a disruptor to offenses, and what he could bring to the defense is incredibly valuable.

Of course, the problem is that if things don’t click for him and he doesn’t improve on his ability to do what the coaches ask of him, he will be just another sad case of unfulfilled potential. At this point, I’d say it’s 50/50 on him either being a bust or turning into a very good player. A second round pick that is a coin flip probability to hit isn’t exactly what we want, but that’s where we are with Hill.

His effort and desire to play isn’t a problem though, I agree with that.

Here are a couple of guys from The Draft Network and what they say specifically about his effort and playing to the whistle:

Marino:

Effort
- One of the most urgent football players I have ever seen. Plays every snap like his life depends on it. Always pursues the football at a full sprint. Gets knocked down and immediately pops up looking for the football. More technique is needed to take advantage of his effort and turn it into consistent play,asking.

Play Speed - There’s no doubt that he plays fast with insane urgency but it can be to his detriment and he’ll run right out of his rush lanes and run fits. Creates levels in the run game by getting too far up the field.

Ledyard:

Competitive Toughness - Part of a heavy rotation, but played unbelievably hard when he was on the field. Ridiculous hustle in every game to attempt to chase down runners away from his gap. Plays with reckless abandon and physicality. Chirps too.

Range - Despite elite hustle, doesn't have great range and speed is average for the position. Will make plays with his effort that some more rangy defensive tackles wouldn't consider attempting. Short-area quickness is impressive, some of his tackles for loss involved quick lateral movement.


https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/trysten-hill



Anyway, the guy isn’t lazy, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have a problem. We all hope that the new staff manages to fix whatever the issue is, but at this point, I’ll have to see it before I get excited at all about what he can be. If he played up to his traits and abilities, he will be a hell of a player. What he does have going for him is that the entire defense disappointed last year and frankly, was a mess. I don’t see any reason not to give him at least some kind of break for that.

If not? Well that’s why they drafted Gallimore. I’m greedy though... I want both to hit.

Tomsula has his work cut out for him with 2 very raw DT's playing behind 2 older vets.

Hill had a very close relationship with Marinelli and even Marinelli refused to give him reps.

There is no denying that the talent is there, is Hill willing to maximize his opportunities by out working and out studying everyone will be the bigger question.

 

Cowboys22

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Exactly the reply I would expect if you have no clue and are just making things up.

Go laugh about the fact that I make more in a week than you make in a year...

Classic response of a lost argument. Claim the other side is lying and then try to ridicule them into shutting up and going away. You just outed yourself as the one with no clue and just making things up. You don’t know me, don’t know what I do for a living, or how much I make in a year yet you claim you do. Keep defending the indefensible, it’s noble work you’re doing. By the way, Hill sucked last year, is an uncoachable, lazy, total bust of a 2nd round pick and no amount of excuse making and ridiculous twisting of logic is going to change that. Good day, I’m off to earn my meager existence.
 

PhillyCowboysFan

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  • It is comical that the majority of fans like or love the Gallimore pick but hated the Hill pick.
  • Based strictly on game footage, they are very similar players in many ways.
    • Both are very quick and projected as 3tech pass rushing type DTs but both played more snaps in college at the 1tech or 0tech spots.
  • Both played somewhat opposite of the general style of players aligned at their positions (specific to their final college seasons).
    • Gallimore played a 3tech pass rushing style while most often aligning as a 1tech.
    • Hill was moved to 3tech in his final college season but played more of a 1 or 0 tech style.

X i believe that the hate on Hill is from all the pre-draft bad press he received about his attitude from his last year in college. It also didn’t help that he basically didn’t show up his rookie year. Talent wise on paper it looks like he should be a stud. We will see.
 

fivetwos

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I think many were disappointed in the Hill selection due to several safeties had fallen to the Cowboys pick and decided to take him. Many were calling him a bust last season cause he was inactive for many weeks. In his in season snaps, he flashed at times, I remember a few plays, one on the goal line where he blew up the run play with his quickness off the snap.

Some players take longer to develop, there is usually a steep learning curve for defensive lineman. I remember Parcells complaining about Ware early on. Let's hope the team can at least hit on one of Hill/Gallimore. Having a veteran like McCoy should only help their development at the position.
He also caught some unfair extra attention because he was our first selection.

If we had a first round pick he would be given more of a pass for now as a late second rounder.

Taco busting and the whole Marinelli involvement thing, plus passing on a couple of safeties that had decent rookie years all added up against the guy.

Who knows exactly what went on with the last staff and how they handled things?

We should all certainly choose to give Hill the benefit of the doubt for now.

Sounds to me like he just needs to be coddled a bit, and form a good relationship with his position coach. Tomsula will likely play a big role as far as what Hill becomes.

For now, I expect him to be a useful piece on a DL that relies on heavy rotation.

Having McCoy and Poe around to school him shouldn't hurt either.
 

ColoradoCowboy

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I have had a couple of very vehement differences of opinion with Mr. Walker, but on this subject; I 100% agree with him.

With Hill, it is all mental. The man is NOT physically lazy. The trick is finding what motivates him. I knew a guy that had a manager that only knew how to tell a person what they were doing wrong, so they could fix it. But the manager never told the guy what he was doing right. The guy HATED his job and the manager. The manager left the company and the new manager had no problem telling people what they did well along with areas of weakness. In a matter of months, the guy LOVED his job and became one of the best at it. In short, management style is important.

I don't assign personality traits to a person because they fell asleep during a meeting. I have almost done that, and I have seen it done, a large number of times. Late? Yeah, that happens every now and again. Life happens. I was a bit late for work once last week. I am neither lazy nor stupid.


Don't drink the media Kool-Aid.
 

Cowboyny

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He also caught some unfair extra attention because he was our first selection.

If we had a first round pick he would be given more of a pass for now as a late second rounder.

Taco busting and the whole Marinelli involvement thing, plus passing on a couple of safeties that had decent rookie years all added up against the guy.

Who knows exactly what went on with the last staff and how they handled things?

We should all certainly choose to give Hill the benefit of the doubt for now.

Sounds to me like he just needs to be coddled a bit, and form a good relationship with his position coach. Tomsula will likely play a big role as far as what Hill becomes.

For now, I expect him to be a useful piece on a DL that relies on heavy rotation.

Having McCoy and Poe around to school him shouldn't hurt either.

-Some rookies have a steeper learning curve, especially along the DL. I remember a very green, DLaw who missed a few games, but didn't register a single sack until the postseason. He was the player suppose to replace Ware. Point is, we as fans have to be patient with his development.

-Hill was a very raw prospect that had the athletic profile that our front office likes to target, along with that get-off Marinelli seeked. In a small sample size, we did see the quickness off the snap. It was going to take time to learn how to refine his technique as in the NFL, players cannot simply win with just high level athleticism.

-What we as fans want to see is improvement this year, earn a spot in the rotation and continue to grow with more experience. We have no idea at this early stage if he will become a quality player or not, but we cannot label him a draft bust after just 1 season, especially with a disfunctional coaching staff.
 

Beaker42

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We could have had Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Tyreek Hill...
LOL, you got nothing better than bringing up old drafts. Everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY, knew Thornhill should’ve been the pick. Even Stevie Wonder and Andrea Boccelli.
 

quickccc

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Here are a couple of guys from The Draft Network and what they say specifically about his effort and playing to the whistle:

Marino:

Effort
- One of the most urgent football players I have ever seen. Plays every snap like his life depends on it. Always pursues the football at a full sprint. Gets knocked down and immediately pops up looking for the football. More technique is needed to take advantage of his effort and turn it into consistent play,asking.

Play Speed - There’s no doubt that he plays fast with insane urgency but it can be to his detriment and he’ll run right out of his rush lanes and run fits. Creates levels in the run game by getting too far up the field.

Ledyard:

Competitive Toughness - Part of a heavy rotation, but played unbelievably hard when he was on the field. Ridiculous hustle in every game to attempt to chase down runners away from his gap. Plays with reckless abandon and physicality. Chirps too.

Range - Despite elite hustle, doesn't have great range and speed is average for the position. Will make plays with his effort that some more rangy defensive tackles wouldn't consider attempting. Short-area quickness is impressive, some of his tackles for loss involved quick lateral movement.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/trysten-hill

Per NFL.com Draft Profile on DT Trysten Hill

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/trysten-hill/32194849-4c00-0003-9608-9c2ce3128b7b
 

xwalker

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LOL. So the best writers were lying or making things up?

I mean we have two documented cases of Hill screwing up in meetings, on top of the fact he had a documented attitude issue for part of his time at UCF.

There is a pattern here that you want to ignore because you tend to just think everything is peachy in Cowboys land. Marinelli isn’t also going to trash a kid in the press, especially a kid he went to bat for and why we took him in the 2nd in the first place.

Hill has talent. Hill also has to get his attitude in check if he’s going to reach his potential. There is zero wrong with saying that.

What writers and what exactly did they "report" other than the 1 meeting and 1 time being late.

  • College DC
    • There was an interview with Hill's 2nd college DC (Randy Shannon). I posted it here last year.
    • He said that there was not a problem with Hill's attitude and that Hill worked hard in practice and had a "high motor".
    • The only problem they had related to "attitude" was that Hill got angry when the new HC denied his request to transfer with the other coaching staff.
    • It was not Shannon's decision to not start Hill. That was made by the HC. Shannon implied he didn't agree.
    • Hill was clearly better than the other DTs in game footage. Al Davis once "benched" Marcus Allen by not starting him and limiting his snaps because of personal reasons.
    • Shannon said that their HC didn't always start the best players. They started the players that best implemented their schemes/techniques.
    • Remember when Nick Golden Cock Hayden started multiple seasons at 1tech because he always had the least "loafs" when they graded film?
    • Much like what Marinelli said, Shannon said that Hill didn't always implement the techniques that they wanted him to use.
    • They had moved him to 3tech. He had played 3-4 NT with the previous coaching staff.
    • Just like Marinelli, they wanted him to focus on pass rushing but the original college staff had ingrained into him to play the run first.
  • Fan Narrative
    • I'm certain that I've researched this subject far more than you have researched it.
    • I have no reason to support Hill. I didn't advocate to draft him or anything like that.
    • My interest is in regards to false fan narratives.
    • Hill was in the 2nd college Head Coaches doghouse; therefore the fan narrative becomes that he is lazy and a problem child.
    • The fan narrative continues despite the fact that the DC on that 2nd college coaching staff clearing saying that Hill did not have an attitude issue and that he practiced hard and had a high motor.
    • The fan narrative then expands due to minor issues during his rookie season despite Marinelli clearly saying that bad attitude or lack of work ethic were definitely not the problem.
    • Then the narrative further expands with either some media speculating that Hill had an attitude problem or fans imagining that the media "reported" that Hill had an attitude problem.
 

xwalker

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Now this is the kinda hard-hitting self-referencing I put a lot of stock in.

If you don't like what I post, then I know I'm doing an excellent job.

If you like what I post then I'll wonder if I'm off my game.

The only people more awesome than me are the police that keep us safe.
 

CalPolyTechnique

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If you don't like what I post, then I know I'm doing an excellent job.

If you like what I post then I'll wonder if I'm off my game.

The only people more awesome than me are the police that keep us safe.

Bro, you’re taking it the wrong way.

I’ve always said nobody is better at copy pasta than you.
 

quickccc

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Tomsula has his work cut out for him with 2 very raw DT's playing behind 2 older vets.

Hill had a very close relationship with Marinelli and even Marinelli refused to give him reps.

There is no denying that the talent is there, is Hill willing to maximize his opportunities by out working and out studying everyone will be the bigger question.



That's why i don't consider Marinelli and Hill as a close relationship.
i took it as more of a watchdog committment than a buddy system.

i actually see two vastly experienced vet DTs as a terrific luxury while the two young DTs can
have a more gradual learning curve as they are rotated and don't have to be pressed
into having to start anytime soon.

i admit that i've already placed a closer eye and eagerness on Gallimore because of what he displayed
at the Senior Bowl vs various the more heralded, bigger named OL talent and competition.
 

xwalker

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LOL, you got nothing better than bringing up old drafts. Everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY, knew Thornhill should’ve been the pick. Even Stevie Wonder and Andrea Boccelli.

Listen more. Talk less.

  • I was undecided on Thornhill vs Hill.
    • It was obvious that Thornhill would be ready earlier than Hill, but if Hill panned out it is the much more difficult type player to obtain.
      • Keep in mind that Thornhill was the 6th Safety drafted that year. Other teams obviously did not have him super highly rated either...
      • I liked Thornhill but he was a FS or CB and the Cowboys had 2 players that could play FS but zero that were good options at SS.
    • The Cowboys decision on Thornhill vs Hill came down to Thornhill vs Safeties they liked in the 3rd round.
      • They were not going to draft a Safety in both the 2nd and 3rd but they targeted getting a Strong Safety in the 3rd; therefore, they took the DT in the 2nd.
      • They targeted 2 DBs in the 3rd but their top target was drafted at #81 and they had pick #90.
      • That Safety did start as a rookie and played well. They had a good plan but it didn't work out.
    • Their approach did work out in 2020. They could have traded up in the 2nd to draft Diggs but took the chance that he would be available at their pick.
      • They took that chance because they were content to draft Gallimore in the 2nd if Diggs was off the board.
      • They ended up getting both.
  • "EVERYBODY"
    • The same group of people thought Travis Frederick was "over drafted". I loved the pick.
    • A huge number of people at CZ wanted to draft Manziel back in 2014. I was adamantly against drafting Manziel.
    • I was the only fan that wanted to draft Witten in the 1st round back in 2003...
      • The Cowboys get praised for picking Witten in the 3rd but that means they skipped drafting him in the 2nd.
      • That would have been a colossally bad decision if some other team had drafted him before their pick in the 3rd.
 

xwalker

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That's why i don't consider Marinelli and Hill as a close relationship.
i took it as more of a watchdog committment than a buddy system.

i actually see two vastly experienced vet DTs as a terrific luxury while the two young DTs can
have a more gradual learning curve as they are rotated and don't have to be pressed
into having to start anytime soon.

i admit that i've already placed a closer eye and eagerness on Gallimore because of what he displayed
at the Senior Bowl vs various the more heralded, bigger named OL talent and competition.

Agree.

McCoy should be a good mentor to the young DTs.
 

xwalker

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Classic response of a lost argument. Claim the other side is lying and then try to ridicule them into shutting up and going away. You just outed yourself as the one with no clue and just making things up. You don’t know me, don’t know what I do for a living, or how much I make in a year yet you claim you do. Keep defending the indefensible, it’s noble work you’re doing. By the way, Hill sucked last year, is an uncoachable, lazy, total bust of a 2nd round pick and no amount of excuse making and ridiculous twisting of logic is going to change that. Good day, I’m off to earn my meager existence.

Absolutely nothing worth talking about which means he sucked. I’ll tell you what’s actually comical. Someone trying to defend the complete nothingness that was Hill’s rookie season. I’m getting a nice chuckle out of it.

You had the chance to reply to debate the facts/details but you had the reply above which was just ducking out of the debate because you couldn't support you claims.

Then you cry because you get ridiculed for ducking out.
 
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