Marinelli May deserve an apology from some here

darthseinfeld

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Sydla said:
Strong pass rush should correlate into something though, right? Sacks? Turnovers?

It's odd that we are so great at getting after the QB and basically were average or sucked at everything else on defense.
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Thats because our pass rush for the most part was schemed. We had good rushers in Lawrence and Quinn, but we had to scheme ways get an interior rush. Even with Quinn there was an insistence to leave him in the field for 3 downs despite the fact he would rush the QB even on running plays.

They seemed to through all their eggs in the attack the QB basket. It may have worked if the secondary could create turnovers. But they could. The only threat the defense had was the pass rush
 
Stash

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dogunwo said:
I will give the OP @Dre11 credit for this: He gave us something different to talk about at least for a few hours. Too bad is resulted in one of the worst takes on this forum in years.
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That's what he does.

If you want to know what wrong is, look no further than any opinion he has on anything.

He says 'down', rest assured that the correct answer is 'up'.
 
Rayman70

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apology??? ***
iu
 

QuincyCarterEra

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dogunwo said:
Once again, even if that was true, it means that Marinelli was such a failure of a defensive coordinator that they allowed someone else do to his primary job for him. The patchwork of defensive play calling lies on Marinelli's shoulders.

His biggest accomplishment in Dallas was making no name NFL players with little talent seem competent. And by competent, I mean good enough to make an NFL roster, not good enough to start.
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"Even if that was true"
It's not an "even if" it's a well known fact that is easily verified. Lol.

No, it means that Rod was willing to step down, while the Carrott and Jones thought they had top defensive coach on the rise in their organization who was interviewing for head coaching positions including the Dolphins, so to hold onto him they gave him a promotion.

"The patchwork of the defensive play calling lies on Rod"
Yet again, it's blatantly obvious you don't know what you're talking about so you're having to try and use words you don't know. We will all repeat again, Rod did not call any plays in 2019, and that is a main reason we regressed last year.

His greatest attribute was getting the most out of his players. When DLinemen leave the Cowboys after working with Rod, they always regress. Rod made starters out of Dlaw, Woods, J Crawford, Collins, and many many more.
 
CouchCoach

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I don't know what kind of coach Marinelli is but I do know one thing, you can't give a chef ground meat and expect Chateaubriand on your plate.

There are two kinds of DC's in the game. One tries to tailor his D to the available talent, Marinelli, Phillips and Zimmer and the other Rob Ryan, runs his D regardless of the talent as he did in Dallas with disastrous results.

Marvin Lewis and Buddy Ryan got HC jobs based on their D's as DC's and were never able to even approach that standard again. Monte Kiffin never had a great D outside of TB with a loaded D roster. The best DC in the game doesn't have a system, it is a conglomerate of systems that he can fit to his talent in NE.

When he was the DC for Parcells with the Giants, he didn't create that D, the presence of Lawrence Taylor and what he could do did. Once he saw Taylor in action, be began to run it around him.

When the Cowboys moved to the 3/4 under Parcells, he was asked in a pc about the difference. He said the 3/4 is more dependent on the one on one matchups and the player winning at that point and very unforgiving if he doesn't. He never ran the 3/4 properly in Dallas because he didn't have the talent. Parcells ran more BDBD in Dallas that anywhere else he ever coached. He had to protect his D, it was seldom the 3/4 attack D he'd had at his other stops.

I think Marinelli tried to cover for the lack of talent and I think that diminished the effect even a good player could have because they were more worried about the other guy doing his job. "Just do your job" is what D is all about. And it can be a s simple as one guy.

Think about Roy OU Williams with Woody back there and without. Think about Ware without Ratliff's motor in the middle.

Landry's Flex D wasn't great until he got the great talent to execute it. The 4-6 doesn't work without those key players. What comprised the Steel Curtain, the DC or those players? Half are in the HOF. Is the Fearsome Foursome fearsome without Deacon Jones?

Marinelli, like this before him, had the challenge of playing for a follow the ball GM that still thinks it was triplets that got 3 rings.
 
gimmesix

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Dre11 said:
Just heard on 105 3 the fan RJ choppy quote a stat that said the Cowboys pass rush win rate what's 53% which ranked number one in the league. For those who adore Analytics and stats, by this Marinelli may be owed an apology.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...s-rushing-rankings-2019-pbwr-prwr-leaderboard
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Marinelli's problem is not his ability to coach defensive linemen. He's a very good technical coach who wants his players to stay solid in their technique no matter what. His falling is similar to Garrett's: his inability to adjust when technique/individual prowess isn't enough.

Marinelli's success as a defensive coordinator has been directly tied to holding the position under defensive-minded coaches who set or guided the scheme. He got those roles because of his work as a position coach.

Some dismiss his ability as a position coach based on his failings as a DC. Like Wade Phillips as a head coach, some coaches just have a lane they need to stay in.
 
Rayman70

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CouchCoach said:
I don't know what kind of coach Marinelli is but I do know one thing, you can't give a chef ground meat and expect Chateaubriand on your plate.

There are two kinds of DC's in the game. One tries to tailor his D to the available talent, Marinelli, Phillips and Zimmer and the other Rob Ryan, runs his D regardless of the talent as he did in Dallas with disastrous results.

Marvin Lewis and Buddy Ryan got HC jobs based on their D's as DC's and were never able to even approach that standard again. Monte Kiffin never had a great D outside of TB with a loaded D roster. The best DC in the game doesn't have a system, it is a conglomerate of systems that he can fit to his talent in NE.

When he was the DC for Parcells with the Giants, he didn't create that D, the presence of Lawrence Taylor and what he could do did. Once he saw Taylor in action, be began to run it around him.

When the Cowboys moved to the 3/4 under Parcells, he was asked in a pc about the difference. He said the 3/4 is more dependent on the one on one matchups and the player winning at that point and very unforgiving if he doesn't. He never ran the 3/4 properly in Dallas because he didn't have the talent. Parcells ran more BDBD in Dallas that anywhere else he ever coached. He had to protect his D, it was seldom the 3/4 attack D he'd had at his other stops.

I think Marinelli tried to cover for the lack of talent and I think that diminished the effect even a good player could have because they were more worried about the other guy doing his job. "Just do your job" is what D is all about. And it can be a s simple as one guy.

Think about Roy OU Williams with Woody back there and without. Think about Ware without Ratliff's motor in the middle.

Landry's Flex D wasn't great until he got the great talent to execute it. The 4-6 doesn't work without those key players. What comprised the Steel Curtain, the DC or those players? Half are in the HOF. Is the Fearsome Foursome fearsome without Deacon Jones?

Marinelli, like this before him, had the challenge of playing for a follow the ball GM that still thinks it was triplets that got 3 rings.
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he hand picked Tristan hill...just sayin, theres that. We owe Marinelli NUTHIN. Jerry owes him NUTHIN. He reaped what he sowed.
 
Flamma

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Trendnet said:
If I agree with the stats - then they are perfect

If I disagree, well then they are just misleading.
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A stat is a stat whether you agree with it or not. Nothing to disagree with. A statistic will always be what it says it is. It's the point someone is trying to prove using the stat that comes into question. Not the stat itself.
 
SteveTheCowboy

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Dre11 said:
so you're not an analytics guy? or any stat guy, because if you are you can't pick and choose what stats you want to use as an indicator of results.
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That's the very definition of cherry picking. "Oh I'll pick THIS stat to prove my point...ignore anything else".

Stats are fine.....when used with some other stats and broader context. Just my opinion no offense intended.
 
Rayman70

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Buzzbait said:
I agree, I'm not going to miss Marinelli or his weak defensive lines. The first thing MM did was shore up that DT position with some quality. For a change!
Thank you Mike McCarthy.
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addition by subtraction as they say. The first couple years or so Rod was great...THEN he refused to evolve the way he did things to fit the talent. THUS, he failed. The good coaches in this league mold their scheme around the talent..flexibility is a mindset. Thats why Belechick is so good. He is much more flexible than people think.
 
SteveTheCowboy

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Flamma said:
A stat is a stat whether you agree with it or not. Nothing to disagree with. A statistic will always be what it says it is. It's the point someone is trying to prove using the stat that comes into question. Not the stat itself.
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I dig it...but with a few exceptions. I think this "catchable ball" stat we've been tossing around lately is...a very poor one. 1st downs, TOP, tackles...I get....even yards gained is FAIRLY accurate.
"catchable". Grain of salt there!
 
Stash

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Rayman70 said:
addition by subtraction as they say. The first couple years or so Rod was great...THEN he refused to evolve the way he did things to fit the talent. THUS, he failed. The good coaches in this league mold their scheme around the talent..flexibility is a mindset. Thats why Belechick is so good. He is much more flexible than people think.
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Like his mentor Monte Kiffin, the game has passed him by. It does with everyone at some point, especially those who can't or won't adapt. And when a coach knows only a certain way of doing things for so long, they don't change. And that's why opponents knew exactly what to expect from the Cowboys defense. Marinelli and his scheme has been well figured out.
 
jterrell

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Rod definitely got unduly roasted here.
But it's part of the gig. Rod and Tommsula could be twins.

This was a mgmt issue. They wanted to get away from vanilla defense and added Richard to bring more coverage options.
In year 1 that was pretty sweet because we added a few wrinkles but mostly used Rod's defense.
Year 2 they gave KR the lead and let him call all but the DL and what we saw was a major disconnect that saw LBs who considered themselves Hot Boyz now being part of the back end coverage far more often.
It made life easier on CBs and Safeties but exposed our LBs, leaving them in coverage time and time again.
Having LVE banged up all year didn't help at all.

Mike Nolan is a LB coach by trade. And he will build the defense around those guys.
I think it'll be very successful at least short term.
 
Rayman70

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stasheroo said:
Like his mentor Monte Kiffin, the game has passed him by. It does with everyone at some point, especially those who can't or won't adapt. And when a coach knows only a certain way of doing things for so long, they don't change. And that's why opponents knew exactly what to expect from the Cowboys defense. Marinelli and his scheme has been well figured out.
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your right. Happens to all of them with rare exception. Its a younger mans game in general and that includes coaching. I think up in NE we will see what BB looks like as a HC without the talent he is used to.
 
Rayman70

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jterrell said:
Rod definitely got unduly roasted here.
But it's part of the gig. Rod and Tommsula could be twins.

This was a mgmt issue. They wanted to get away from vanilla defense and added Richard to bring more coverage options.
In year 1 that was pretty sweet because we added a few wrinkles but mostly used Rod's defense.
Year 2 they gave KR the lead and let him call all but the DL and what we saw was a major disconnect that saw LBs who considered themselves Hot Boyz now being part of the back end coverage far more often.
It made life easier on CBs and Safeties but exposed our LBs, leaving them in coverage time and time again.
Having LVE banged up all year didn't help at all.

Mike Nolan is a LB coach by trade. And he will build the defense around those guys.
I think it'll be very successful at least short term.
Click to expand...
Tomsula will relate better to the guys. It was time for a change. Sometimes a fresh scheme,fresh face is whats needed.
 
Pantone282C

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John813 said:
Good thing they were #1 in pass rush win rate. Definitely helped them force sacks(19th), fumbles(15th) and INTs(30th).

Yea, they pressured the QB 11th overall, but it didn't lead to much of anything.
Except for ranking 25th in completion percentage for the opposing QB, at 65%
Bah gawd I miss him already!
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:muttley:
 
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Rayman70

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stasheroo said:
Like his mentor Monte Kiffin, the game has passed him by. It does with everyone at some point, especially those who can't or won't adapt. And when a coach knows only a certain way of doing things for so long, they don't change. And that's why opponents knew exactly what to expect from the Cowboys defense. Marinelli and his scheme has been well figured out.
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yup when Monte became a liability, it was obvious and so he was moved outta there fairly quick. It was embarrassing. Landry sadly was a liability, as was Tex Schramm and Brandt as they aged. They just failed to evolve...staunchly stuck to their plan and it failed miserably. This sport is great,IMO, the greatest sport ever, and it will pass you by if you fail to evolve along with it. Players have gotten better over the years, coaches have greatly improved. It catches up to the older coaches. Its just life.
 
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