Should the Cowboys have gone for 2 on the 1st or 2nd TD?

pansophy

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Therein lies the problem. Down 15 you aren’t playing to win. You’re playing to extend the game with a tie.

Riverboat Mike is a gambler as we have seen his first two weeks and isn’t playing to extend the game with a tie. He’s rolling the dice to win.
You aren’t extending the game by going for 1. That is the WHOLE point. People who say it makes it a one possession game are omitting that it’s only going to be 1 possession game only 50% of the time.

Knowing the outcome of that play allowed us to play with certainty. Why does anyone think it’s better to manage the game not knowing if it’s a 1 or 2 possession game?
 

Diehardblues

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You aren’t extending the game by going for 1. That is the WHOLE point. People who say it makes it a one possession game are omitting that it’s only going to be 1 possession game only 50% of the time.

Knowing the outcome of that play allowed us to play with certainty. Why does anyone think it’s better to manage the game not knowing if it’s a 1 or 2 possession game?
You are creating a greater opportunity to extend the game needing only 1 possession instead of 2.

You manage the game knowing if you miss the conversion you still need another possession. Nothing’s changed there.

But at least you leave the possibility that only 1 possession is needed. Which you eliminated when you missed it on the 1st TD.
 

pansophy

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You are creating a greater opportunity to extend the game needing only 1 possession instead of 2.

You manage the game knowing if you miss the conversion you still need another possession. Nothing’s changed there.

But at least you leave the possibility that only 1 possession is needed. Which you eliminated when you missed it on the 1st TD.
So basically you are bummed that we didn't execute and as a fan you would rather have the uncertainty until the very last moment than knowing that we missed it. That does zero to help the team overcome the missed 2pt conversion though.
 

Diehardblues

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So basically you are bummed that we didn't execute and as a fan you would rather have the uncertainty until the very last moment than knowing that we missed it. That does zero to help the team overcome the missed 2pt conversion though.
Nope . You didn’t grasp my argument which is I believe our chances are better needing only 1 possession than 2 to extend the game.

Stick to the contents of my argument. Don’t get frustrated and try and make it personal.
 
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buybuydandavis

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It shouldn’t be an argument at all, there’s a mathematical right and wrong answer. Those claiming it’s better to wait until the second TD to attempt the try are objectively incorrect.

Not everything is a matter of opinion.

That's true of the math.

Helman tried to revive the wait strategy with a "team spirit" argument, that missing on a 2 point early can kill the hopes of the offense. That's projecting his feelings onto the team. I'd hope the team can play professionally regardless.

There's something to that argument, but I'd rather train up their emotions to work with the math instead of sacrificing the math to their *supposed* emotions.
 

Trajan

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Nope . You didn’t grasp my argument which is I believe our chances are better needing only 1 possession than 2 to extend the game.

Stick to the contents of my argument. Don’t get frustrated and try and make it personal.

Your premise is based on a flaw. The probability for success on the 2 pt conversion are the same either way, early or late, 50% of the time, going for the final 2 pt conversion will fail and the team will need another possession. Yes, you can hope, beg, pray, pretend that the 2 pt conversion works, but if it fails, you are now in the same position and will need an onside kick, recovery and another score. It is better to know early that another possession is needed and plan for it rather then wait until the last moments of a game, if there is even time left. Look, both are low probability plays, but kicking early is slightly better.
 

guag

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I was on the side of second score but after really understanding what the coaches are thinking i finally get it..

explanation they used and now i get is you go for it on the first TD so you then either have the successful conversion and now can win with a td and xpoint much easier , however if you dont have successful 2p conversion you now know you need two scoring drives

VS

waiting until the 2p conversion is needed for the win which is a longer shot then actually 2 scores given its the final play of the game and now you are desperate and they know its coming..

im being converted on the conversion analytic..

i was pissed they didnt go for the point to make it one score but i get it now
I'm in the exact same boat.
 

Nav22

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Next poll should be “is wearing a mask in public when you can’t socially distance a good idea?”

I’d expect roughly the same amount of people voting “no” as the people who voted “2nd TD.”

Facts aren’t for everyone, apparently.
 

Diehardblues

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Your premise is based on a flaw. The probability for success on the 2 pt conversion are the same either way, early or late, 50% of the time, going for the final 2 pt conversion will fail and the team will need another possession. Yes, you can hope, beg, pray, pretend that the 2 pt conversion works, but if it fails, you are now in the same position and will need an onside kick, recovery and another score. It is better to know early that another possession is needed and plan for it rather then wait until the last moments of a game, if there is even time left. Look, both are low probability plays, but kicking early is slightly better.
My argument doesn’t revolve around the mathematical percentage .

I believe leaving the possibility of a 1 possession game elevates momentum. You can still plan for needing additional time for another possession if needed. Or onside kick.

And I also believe missing it after the 1st TD slows momentum . While the adrenaline after only needing the conversion after the 2nd TD is much greater.

If you miss it it’s the same situation as before still needing another possession. You still have to mange the time as though you might need it. But you at least left the opportunity for only needing 1 possession,
 

Maxmadden

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My argument doesn’t revolve around the mathematical percentage .

I believe leaving the possibility of a 1 possession game elevates momentum. You can still plan for needing additional time for another possession if needed. Or onside kick.

And I also believe missing it after the 1st TD slows momentum . While the adrenaline after only needing the conversion after the 2nd TD is much greater.

If you miss it it’s the same situation as before still needing another possession. You still have to mange the time as though you might need it. But you at least left the opportunity for only needing 1 possession,
You can believe whatever you want but the game Sunday disproves everything you said and believe.
You should just revel in the fact that ignorance is bliss.
 

Diehardblues

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You can believe whatever you want but the game Sunday disproves everything you said and believe.
You should just revel in the fact that ignorance is bliss.
Only because of an epic collapse and idiotic play by the Falcons. . One of the most improbable plays in Cowboy history doesn’t disprove it was a dumb decision.
 

CarolinaFathead

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My argument doesn’t revolve around the mathematical percentage .

I believe leaving the possibility of a 1 possession game elevates momentum. You can still plan for needing additional time for another possession if needed. Or onside kick.

And I also believe missing it after the 1st TD slows momentum . While the adrenaline after only needing the conversion after the 2nd TD is much greater.

If you miss it it’s the same situation as before still needing another possession. You still have to mange the time as though you might need it. But you at least left the opportunity for only needing 1 possession,

This is not how game situations work when you’re in a position NEEDING a two point conversion. That’s the key word - NEEDING. Given that it’s a 50/50 proposition of success no matter when you attempt it and given that it is 100% needed it is best to attempt it as early as possible so that you leave as much game time as you can to recover from potentially failing to convert.

It boils down to knowing what you absolutely have to know as soon you can know it so you can maximize your ability to win the game.

If Dallas kicks the XP at 4:57, MM doesn’t even know if he’s going to get the ball back, so managing for possessions at this point is practically irrelevant. Whether you kick the XP, convert the 2 pt play, or fail to convert, you still don’t know if you’re getting the ball back. No decision made will tell you anything regarding that so managing for something you can’t control is not a good strategy.

Secondly, if Dallas kicks the XP at 4:57 and they manage to get the ball back and drive to the RZ, they are going to milk the clock as much as possible because they DON’T KNOW if they are going to convert the 2 point play if they score. So they are managing the game at that point to leave ATL little to no time after the two point conversion is attempted so that if they are successful ATL will be pressed for time to score. The first problem with this is that you’ve totally screwed yourself if you fail to convert because you had to milk the clock with the assumption you were going to convert and if you don’t you’ve relegated recovery of an onside kick, if there is even any time left to attempt one basically a worthless proposition because even if you recover it, time constraints will greatly limit your potential to move the ball in FG range. The second problem with this is that you have now taken a 50/50 proposition that you don’t know if you’ll be successful converting and making it a do or die situation with little to no chance for any back up plan to help you recover from failing the conversion. If you fail, you lose. We failed at 4:57 and won. That’s the difference.

When MM attempted the 2 point conversion “known knowns” that you absolutely would not know otherwise are guaranteed as a result, regardless of failing or succeeding versus waiting to attempt the 2 point conversion which means you’re playing with uncertainty which would affect how you managed the clock. The bottom line is that if you’re going to fail the 2 point conversion you absolutely HAVE to convert in order to tie the game, it’s better to know with 4:57 left in the game than 15-30 seconds left, as an example. With one scenario you have time to potentially recover without being pressed on offense. With the other, you’ve squandered precious and valuable game time because of supposed psychological benefits. It’s bunk.

Having 1:40 left after the recovery was directly attributable to MM going for two at 4:57. If he waits for the second score, it’s highly likely because of how team’s want to manage the clock being down 8 in those situations that far far less time (if any) is on the clock when the needed second TD is scored which affects the success of a needed (if the 2 pt conversion fails) onside kick negatively even if it’s recovered because you’re likely to have little to no time to do anything. This is the whole crux of MM’s reasoning and it’s rock solid. He wanted to know as soon as possible whether or not they were going to convert the 2 point play so that the team could adjust accordingly.
 
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Maxmadden

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Only because of an epic collapse and idiotic play by the Falcons. . One of the most improbable plays in Cowboy history doesn’t disprove it was a dumb decision.
The Cowboy players didn't come out without momentum. They, knowing they needed 2 scores came out and stopped Atlanta on three downs. (I could argue that us being down 2 scores ruined Atlanta's momentum) Then we scored the second TD in a minute and 10 seconds after getting the ball back.. Then recovered the onside kick with a minute and 45 seconds left to methodically work our way into field goal position to win the game.

There was never a loss of momentum unless it was Atlanta. If we had waited to attempt a failed 2 pt conversion we would have had no momentum because we would have ran out of time. It would be just another LOSS.
 

Diehardblues

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The Cowboy players didn't come out without momentum. They, knowing they needed 2 scores came out and stopped Atlanta on three downs. (I could argue that us being down 2 scores ruined Atlanta's momentum) Then we scored the second TD in a minute and 10 seconds after getting the ball back.. Then recovered the onside kick with a minute and 45 seconds left to methodically work our way into field goal position to win the game.

There was never a loss of momentum unless it was Atlanta. If we had waited to attempt a failed 2 pt conversion we would have had no momentum because we would have ran out of time. It would be just another LOSS.
If Jones doesn’t Uncharacteristically drop an easy TD. Game over. And then the unbelievable onside kick. The Cowboys will never get that lucky again. Lol
 

CarolinaFathead

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If Jones doesn’t Uncharacteristically drop an easy TD. Game over. And then the unbelievable onside kick. The Cowboys will never get that lucky again. Lol


What’s your point?

What you just posted is 100% irrelevant to MM going for two at 4:57.
 

Maxmadden

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If Jones doesn’t Uncharacteristically drop an easy TD. Game over. And then the unbelievable onside kick. The Cowboys will never get that lucky again. Lol
Nobody is saying they weren't lucky. They were extremely lucky things fell as they did.
If they had attempted the 2 pt on the second TD they never even get a slim chance at being lucky.
Sometimes you stack the odds in your favor and you create your own luck.
 

Diehardblues

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Nobody is saying they weren't lucky. They were extremely lucky things fell as they did.
If they had attempted the 2 pt on the second TD they never even get a slim chance at being lucky.
Sometimes you stack the odds in your favor and you create your own luck.
I still think it was dumb. And if not for all of the unbelievable good fortune which had nothing to do with the decision we would have lost the game and all of our Riverboat Mikes decisions would be bashed severely .
 

Diehardblues

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This is not how game situations work when you’re in a position NEEDING a two point conversion. That’s the key word - NEEDING. Given that it’s a 50/50 proposition of success no matter when you attempt it and given that it is 100% needed it is best to attempt it as early as possible so that you leave as much game time as you can to recover from potentially failing to convert.

It boils down to knowing what you absolutely have to know as soon you can know it so you can maximize your ability to win the game.

If Dallas kicks the XP at 4:57, MM doesn’t even know if he’s going to get the ball back, so managing for possessions at this point is practically irrelevant. Whether you kick the XP, convert the 2 pt play, or fail to convert, you still don’t know if you’re getting the ball back. No decision made will tell you anything regarding that so managing for something you can’t control is not a good strategy.

Secondly, if Dallas kicks the XP at 4:57 and they manage to get the ball back and drive to the RZ, they are going to milk the clock as much as possible because they DON’T KNOW if they are going to convert the 2 point play if they score. So they are managing the game at that point to leave ATL little to no time after the two point conversion is attempted so that if they are successful ATL will be pressed for time to score. The first problem with this is that you’ve totally screwed yourself if you fail to convert because you had to milk the clock with the assumption you were going to convert and if you don’t you’ve relegated recovery of an onside kick, if there is even any time left to attempt one basically a worthless proposition because even if you recover it, time constraints will greatly limit your potential to move the ball in FG range. The second problem with this is that you have now taken a 50/50 proposition that you don’t know if you’ll be successful converting and making it a do or die situation with little to no chance for any back up plan to help you recover from failing the conversion. If you fail, you lose. We failed at 4:57 and won. That’s the difference.

When MM attempted the 2 point conversion “known knowns” that you absolutely would not know otherwise are guaranteed as a result, regardless of failing or succeeding versus waiting to attempt the 2 point conversion which means you’re playing with uncertainty which would affect how you managed the clock. The bottom line is that if you’re going to fail the 2 point conversion you absolutely HAVE to convert in order to tie the game, it’s better to know with 4:57 left in the game than 15-30 seconds left, as an example. With one scenario you have time to potentially recover without being pressed on offense. With the other, you’ve squandered precious and valuable game time because of supposed psychological benefits. It’s bunk.

Having 1:40 left after the recovery was directly attributable to MM going for two at 4:57. If he waits for the second score, it’s highly likely because of how team’s want to manage the clock being down 8 in those situations that far far less time (if any) is on the clock when the needed second TD is scored which affects the success of a needed (if the 2 pt conversion fails) onside kick negatively even if it’s recovered because you’re likely to have little to no time to do anything. This is the whole crux of MM’s reasoning and it’s rock solid. He wanted to know as soon as possible whether or not they were going to convert the 2 point play so that the team could adjust accordingly.
Too long to read but probably not swaying my perspective. Can’t recall so many dumb coaching decisions after 2 games.
 
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