Should the Cowboys have gone for 2 on the 1st or 2nd TD?

GhostOfPelluer

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If we convert the 2 point conversion in the next possession we wouldn’t need the onside kick. We then play to extend the game to OT.

I can’t get inside Riverboat Mikes head but I’m tending to think after our first two games that his high level of risk is rolling the dice to win not tie and extending the game. The 4th and 3 last week certainly supports this notion.

Which is probably popular with some of our fan base. Fans are always rooting to go for it on 4th down , etc. But there’s a reason most HC’s don’t .
This specific call wasn't adding risk, it was adding information, which is a way of minimizing risk. Just because conventional wisdom is one way, doesn't make it the right way. Conventional wisdom was that you needed a big center to win in the NBA. Conventional wisdom was that you needed a good running game to win in football. Those things have been debunked as new information has been embraced, as is the case here.
 

jaythecowboy

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What "mathematical analysis" fails to account for is the human psyche. A "failure" can effect that. It's sort of why AI (supreme mathematical analysis...at least as best as we have so far) can;t completely replace a human pilot.

It also fails to account for the butterfly effect. All subsequent plays would not necessarily have happened in the same way if you fail the two pointer rather than win the one.

I do appreciate how we put math on a high pedestal.....but there's more to this universe than math.

PS....not sure why I choose your comment to post this Mr. King. Maybe it was the surety of your statement? And the insult?

Failure didn't seem to effect the team in this case. And I think that can be mitigated if the team knows you are going for 2 in that situation and the reasons behind it. And the butterfly effect arguably favors going for 2 early as well.
 

Big_D

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6-1-6-2. The onside kick is a last resort. It’s a low percentage play that probably won’t go in their favor the next 50 attempts and you’re playing for the tie. This win was complete luck and those don’t come around too often. Sure there’s a chance they don’t get the 2, but I’m taking the 1 first. Specially with the time remaining.
 

Diehardblues

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Not sure if we precisely agree on this op premise.....but I believe we agree that math does not take into account many things about human endeavors.
Exactly and if you’d read some of my other post above or earlier I was arguing on some of the human aspects or psyche you mentioned like emotion and momentum of the game.
Totally agree!!
 

Diehardblues

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This specific call wasn't adding risk, it was adding information, which is a way of minimizing risk. Just because conventional wisdom is one way, doesn't make it the right way. Conventional wisdom was that you needed a big center to win in the NBA. Conventional wisdom was that you needed a good running game to win in football. Those things have been debunked as new information has been embraced, as is the case here.
If you’re proposing Riverboat Mikes new analytical strategy is the wave of the future in the NFL over conventional wisdom then that’s an entirely different argument.
 

GhostOfPelluer

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Exactly and if you’d read some of my other post above or earlier I was arguing on some of the human aspects or psyche you mentioned like emotion and momentum of the game.
Totally agree!!
The point isn't nothing and is fair. My argument is based on simple math and preference for knowledge. It's also fair to note that Atlanta probably played less aggressively on defense because they were down two scores, without such the comeback may not have been possible either.
 

GhostOfPelluer

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If you’re proposing Riverboat Mikes new analytical strategy is the wave of the future in the NFL over conventional wisdom then that’s an entirely different argument.
The use of analytics in football is increasing - that's not just Mike McCarthy.
 

Diehardblues

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The point isn't nothing and is fair. My argument is based on simple math and preference for knowledge. It's also fair to note that Atlanta probably played less aggressively on defense because they were down two scores, without such the comeback may not have been possible either.
On a side note ; how’d you come up with your screen name ? And curious of intent .
 

pansophy

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Of course being down 8 is 1 possession game.

If you miss the 2 point conversion early then it becomes a 2 possession game down 9. This is elementary stuff.

We hear announcers , analysts and fans always calling a 8 point deficit a 1 possession game.
If you miss the 2 point conversion late, it’s still a 2 possession game.

Announcers aren’t going to say that an 8 point deficit is a 50% chance at a 1 possession game. But in fact that is what it is. Technically that is true for a 7 point lead as well but extra points are so rarely missed that functionally it’s a 1 possession game.

Are you trying to make the case that if you go for 2 late it becomes automatic? People wondered how analytics would impact play calling. We just got an example of it.
 

GhostOfPelluer

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On a side note ; how’d you come up with your screen name ? And curious of intent .
I think a little differently than most people. I'm open minded, much like Pelluer was when it came to possession of the football. I like to argue with people who are 100% certain that only their view is the only view (or "right" view), because most things aren't so black and white and have some nuance. Plus it's a name only a true, longtime fan would recognize. He was Tom Landry's last starting QB, which is interesting and a little sad.
 

DanA

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It's about information and having the most outs. If you go for the two early and miss then:
  • You know you have to play to get two scores and dial up plays accordingly;
  • The opposition know two scores are required and will play accordingly; and
  • You have more information on each subsequent play and can adjust accordingly
At the time we went for two points there was 5:00 minutes on the clock with three time outs. That means there are three outs to get the win:
  1. Make it needing a single score to send it to overtime...game on
  2. Miss. But force a 3 and out....that leaves a small hope of playing a regular kick if you score quickly and still getting the ball back
  3. Miss. Gurley gets a 1st down, and you now know an onside kick is required
If you go for it late then you lose the last two outs because you have to play anticipating you will make the 2 points, and can't leave time on the clock. I'll take the extra outs even if they are low probability over some vague player psychology gained from more hope.
 
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Diehardblues

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If you miss the 2 point conversion late, it’s still a 2 possession game.

Announcers aren’t going to say that an 8 point deficit is a 50% chance at a 1 possession game. But in fact that is what it is. Technically that is true for a 7 point lead as well but extra points are so rarely missed that functionally it’s a 1 possession game.

Are you trying to make the case that if you go for 2 late it becomes automatic? People wondered how analytics would impact play calling. We just got an example of it.
We all know what it is. And we know it’s a 50-50 shot. The fundamental wisdom is it retains only being down 1 possession instead of 2.

And no, I’m not making a case it become automatic. The odds are the same mathematically . It’s only about keeping the 1 possession in play. I do like the emotion or momentum factor more in attempting the conversion on second possession. But my core reasoning is simply keeping the 1 possession in play.

Id like to see more examples of analytics being used or implemented in the NFL.
 

Diehardblues

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It's about information and having the most outs. If you go for the two early and miss then:
  • You know you have to play to get two scores and dial up plays accordingly;
  • The opposition know two scores are required and will play accordingly; and
  • You have more information on each subsequent play and can adjust accordingly
At the time we went for two points there was 5:00 minutes on the clock with three time outs. That means there are three outs to get the win:
  1. Make it needing a single score to send it to overtime...game on
  2. Miss. But force a 3 and out....that leaves a small hope of playing a regular kick if you score quickly and still getting the ball back
  3. Miss. Gurley gets a 1st down, and you now know an onside kick is required
If you go for it late then you lose the last two outs because you have to play anticipating you will make the 2 points, and can't leave time on the clock. I'll take the extra outs even if they are low probability over some vague player psychology gained by players gained from more hope.
I’m not sure you are anticipating you’re making the 2 point conversion on 2nd try. You must still plan the time in case you don’t needing an onside kick. The only difference is keeping the 1 possession possibility in play as long as possible.

I’d also argue that despite the mathematical certainty practically the same that the the emotion and momentum on the 2nd try could be greater. Not something we can actually measure but simply a hunch or intangible factor.
 

Diehardblues

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I think a little differently than most people. I'm open minded, much like Pelluer was when it came to possession of the football. I like to argue with people who are 100% certain that only their view is the only view (or "right" view), because most things aren't so black and white and have some nuance. Plus it's a name only a true, longtime fan would recognize. He was Tom Landry's last starting QB, which is interesting and a little sad.
So a reminder of a dark or sad time in Cowboys history,
 

pansophy

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We all know what it is. And we know it’s a 50-50 shot. The fundamental wisdom is it retains only being down 1 possession instead of 2.

And no, I’m not making a case it become automatic. The odds are the same mathematically . It’s only about keeping the 1 possession in play. I do like the emotion or momentum factor more in attempting the conversion on second possession. But my core reasoning is simply keeping the 1 possession in play.

Id like to see more examples of analytics being used or implemented in the NFL.
Yes exactly, the odds are the same. So the only difference between missing the 2pt conversion on the first TD or second TD is how much time is left on the clock when you know you need an additional score.

You are arguing for finding out with less time on the clock. All the rest of it, “extending the game”, “keeping it a one possession game” are just words that actually have no basis or meaning. It’s only a 1 possession game if you make the 2pt conversion, so this whole conversation is about when do you find that out.
 

Diehardblues

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Yes exactly, the odds are the same. So the only difference between missing the 2pt conversion on the first TD or second TD is how much time is left on the clock when you know you need an additional score.

You are arguing for finding out with less time on the clock. All the rest of it, “extending the game”, “keeping it a one possession game” are just words that actually have no basis or meaning. It’s only a 1 possession game if you make the 2pt conversion, so this whole conversation is about when do you find that out.
Mathematically they don’t but mentally the emotionally factor and the momentum is an intangible factor which can’t be measured analytically.

And they are words which influence these intangible factors or the psyche of the game.
 

pansophy

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Mathematically they don’t but mentally the emotionally factor and the momentum is an intangible factor which can’t be measured analytically.

And they are words which influence these intangible factors or the psyche of the game.
Yes, but certainty also influences the psyche of the game. For the fan, uncertainty may give more hope that we may make the 2 pt conversion later, but the fan can not actually influence the game. For the coach and players, who actually have to make decisions to impact the outcome of the game, knowing with certainty the situation you are in can be helpful.

If your argument is subjective experience, then McCarthy said he wants to know the outcome of that play as soon as possible. That should be the end of the discussion regardless of math, though the math backs up his opinion too.
 
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