Cowboys Defensive Alignments

jrumann59 · Sep 25, 2020

Majic said:
I think D Law will have seen what Peppers did with the switch to a 3-4 OLB and will want to add that string to his bow

Two different body types and players. Peppers was always the pass rusher, guys like peppers and ware con be good at both. DLaw does not have that bend.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

gimmesix said:
I consider it a Big 4-3 or a 5-2 more than a 3-4. Our DEs aren't really playing linebacker as they are not dropping into coverage. We have Crawford at RDE, Poe at DT/NT, Hill at DT/3-tech and Lawrence at LDE, with Aldon Smith as a DPR.

I'm not really pleased with the alignment only because it seems more run-oriented with the three DTs in the there (even though Crawford is playing end) instead of getting the three pass rushers on the field at the same time by having Griffen in the RDE spot.

They did not play a high percentage of snaps in a 3-4 for the Falcons game.

A majority of snaps were in Nickel with a 4 man DL but the DEs were often standing up.

They play a 4-man DL with:
2 DEs standing up
1 DE standing up
0 DEs standing up

gimmesix · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
They did not play a high percentage of snaps in a 3-4 for the Falcons game.

A majority of snaps were in Nickel with a 4 man DL but the DEs were often standing up.

They play a 4-man DL with:
2 DEs standing up
1 DE standing up
0 DEs standing up

Our base is Crawford at RDE, Poe at DT, Hill at DT, Lawrence at DE and Smith at DPR. It's been that since the beginning of the season.

Whether we spent a lot of time in the nickel or not is irrelevant to what our base is. I'm not a fan of our base package. While it may make us stronger against the run, it does not benefit us against the pass. Griffen is a solid run defender, but also brings more against the pass than Crawford, especially at end. I'd prefer that Crawford stick to rotating inside with Hill, Poe and Woods.

I know that we have to rotate Lawrence, Smith and Griffen out to give them rest, but it's not to our advantage IMO to only use Griffen as a rotational end instead of a base starter.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

gimmesix said:
Our base is Crawford at RDE, Poe at DT, Hill at DT, Lawrence at DE and Smith at DPR. It's been that since the beginning of the season.

Whether we spent a lot of time in the nickel or not is irrelevant to what our base is. I'm not a fan of our base package. While it may make us stronger against the run, it does not benefit us against the pass. Griffen is a solid run defender, but also brings more against the pass than Crawford, especially at end. I'd prefer that Crawford stick to rotating inside with Hill, Poe and Woods.

I know that we have to rotate Lawrence, Smith and Griffen out to give them rest, but it's not to our advantage IMO to only use Griffen as a rotational end instead of a base starter.

What do base mean?

The Cowboy didn't use the 3-4 look until the Falcons 3rd series and that was with the Falcons in a 3 TE set.

The Cowboys had used the 4-2-5 with the DEs standing up on the previous 2 series which included 1st and 10 situations.

On the 1st snap of the Falcon's 4th series, the Falcons had 2 WRs, 1 TE and 1 H-back.
- The Cowboys played a 4-3 alignment with Aldon Smith as the Strong Side 4-3 OLB aligned over the slot WR.
- The DL was Griffen, Hill, Poe, Crawford all with their hand down.

Again I ask, what do base mean?
- The alignment most often used on 1st and 10?
- The alignment that they use on the highest percent of snaps?
- The alignment that they use against 2 WR sets?

gimmesix · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
What do base mean?

The Cowboy didn't use the 3-4 look until the Falcons 3rd series and that was with the Falcons in a 3 TE set.

The Cowboys had used the 4-2-5 with the DEs standing up on the previous 2 series which included 1st and 10 situations.

On the 1st snap of the Falcon's 4th series, the Falcons had 2 WRs, 1 TE and 1 H-back.
- The Cowboys played a 4-3 alignment with Aldon Smith as the Strong Side 4-3 OLB aligned over the slot WR.
- The DL was Griffen, Hill, Poe, Crawford all with their hand down.

Again I ask, what do base mean?
- The alignment most often used on 1st and 10?
- The alignment that they use on the highest percent of snaps?
- The alignment that they use against 2 WR sets?

Hmmm, I thought I saw the Crawford/Poe/Hill/Lawrence/Smith alignment on the first play by the defense. I'll have to go back and look.

Base is the non-nickel defense. There are references by the coaches that make that clear. Just because the team is in nickel because, for example, the other team is using three-receiver alignments does not make that the base defense.

Again, I want the base defense to change. The nickel alignment, which usually includes Lawrence and Griffen at end and Smith rushing from the inside, is perfectly fine.

The alignment on the first snap of the fourth series is the one I'm talking about. The only difference is Griffen was out there instead of Lawrence. Crawford does not need to be playing end in any alignment. Instead, we're using him out there in a Big 4-3 with Smith at DPR. We've got four guys who can play end better than he can, at least as pass rushers.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

gimmesix said:
Hmmm, I thought I saw the Crawford/Poe/Hill/Lawrence/Smith alignment on the first play by the defense. I'll have to go back and look.

Base is the non-nickel defense. There are references by the coaches that make that clear. Just because the team is in nickel because, for example, the other team is using three-receiver alignments does not make that the base defense.

Again, I want the base defense to change. The nickel alignment, which usually includes Lawrence and Griffen at end and Smith rushing from the inside, is perfectly fine.

The alignment on the first snap of the fourth series is the one I'm talking about. The only difference is Griffen was out there instead of Lawrence. Crawford does not need to be playing end in any alignment. Instead, we're using him out there in a Big 4-3 with Smith at DPR. We've got four guys who can play end better than he can, at least as pass rushers.

That was a 3 TE alignment.

Crawford is an obviously 3-4 type DE which is a cross between a 4-3 DT and 4-3 DE.

The alignment that you're referencing is just a half notch from being a 3-4 alignment. If Griffen were standing up it would be a 3-4.

Typhus · Sep 25, 2020

fivetwos said:
I don't know XO anywhere near this level, but it sure does appear that Nolan prefers the 34 look at least (even if it isnt) by having the outside guys stand up most of the time.

I'm sure you're right as to what it IS, but it sure does LOOK like a 34, and I cant recall a single play where the alignment looked like your conventional 43.

I'm confused here as to if he is showing multiple looks, or is taking fragments from each and trying to mesh it together somehow.

It would stand to reason that youd want them to be able to run either/or, not some combo of each at once.

That make any sense?

It doesnt have to be a 3-4 or a 4-3,, thats just rationalizing.
Good coaches put their best players in a position to succeed, and considering the injuries, its nice to have players that can be moved in a hybrid scheme that accentuates that players skill set.

gimmesix · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
That was a 3 TE alignment.

Crawford is an obviously 3-4 type DE which is a cross between a 4-3 DT and 4-3 DE.

The alignment that you're referencing is just a half notch from being a 3-4 alignment. If Griffen were standing up it would be a 3-4.

Yeah, I don't think I referenced it as a 3-4 because it's not. I did reference it as a 5-2 (although it's more of a big 3-4) because Aldon Smith isn't really playing linebacker. As Nolan lists him, he's a DPR (designated pass rusher). We all know we essentially have five DL out there in that alignment.

If fans want to call it a 3-4 when the the LDE stands, I have no problem with that, but neither him nor Smith is really playing linebacker. They don't drop into coverage as far as anything I have seen and are usually doing what linemen do. The main difference at DPR is the ability to move Smith around.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

gimmesix said:
Yeah, I don't think I referenced it as a 3-4 because it's not. I did reference it as a 5-2 (although it's more of a big 3-4) because Aldon Smith isn't really playing linebacker. As Nolan lists him, he's a DPR (designated pass rusher). We all know we essentially have five DL out there in that alignment.

If fans want to call it a 3-4 when the the LDE stands, I have no problem with that, but neither him nor Smith is really playing linebacker. They don't drop into coverage as far as anything I have seen and are usually doing what linemen do. The main difference at DPR is the ability to move Smith around.

Aldon Smith is used differently than DLaw/Griffen on snap when they are standing up.

Smith has played real coverage snaps (man coverage on the FB (2nd and 7 in the 1st quarter) and carried him 20 yards down field.

Any coverage by DLaw/Griffen has been short zone drops which many 4-3 defenses do a few snaps per game with their DEs that start with their hand on the ground.

gimmesix · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
Aldon Smith is used differently than DLaw/Griffen on snap when they are standing up.

Smith has played real coverage snaps (man coverage on the FB (2nd and 7 in the 1st quarter) and carried him 20 yards down field.

Any coverage by DLaw/Griffen has been short zone drops which many 4-3 defenses do a few snaps per game with their DEs that start with their hand on the ground.

I have not noticed Smith in coverage, although I'm sure he has done some, just like DEs do (but not usually 20 yards downfield although I have seen it before). He is labeled a DPR for a reason, though. I don't think we've seen him used for much other than attacking the line of scrimmage from multiple spots, nor do I think Nolan intends to use him much as anything other than a designated pass rusher.

Obviously, in any scheme there are times that you drop players who would not normally be in coverage. I expected to see him drop into the short zone often, but I was thinking more about 3-4 OLB responsibilities than DPR responsibilities. They are certainly not the same.

Not saying Smith couldn't play 3-4 end because he has, I believe (didn't really follow him at his previous stops). It just doesn't seem like that's what Nolan wants. He wants pressure to be put on the passer, which we haven't really accomplished as much as you would hope. (I gave the defense a pass in the LA game because the Rams were intent on getting the ball out quickly; the pressure should have been better against the Falcons.)

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

gimmesix said:
I have not noticed Smith in coverage, although I'm sure he has done some, just like DEs do (but not usually 20 yards downfield although I have seen it before). He is labeled a DPR for a reason, though. I don't think we've seen him used for much other than attacking the line of scrimmage from multiple spots, nor do I think Nolan intends to use him much as anything other than a designated pass rusher.

Obviously, in any scheme there are times that you drop players who would not normally be in coverage. I expected to see him drop into the short zone often, but I was thinking more about 3-4 OLB responsibilities than DPR responsibilities. They are certainly not the same.

Not saying Smith couldn't play 3-4 end because he has, I believe (didn't really follow him at his previous stops). It just doesn't seem like that's what Nolan wants. He wants pressure to be put on the passer, which we haven't really accomplished as much as you would hope. (I gave the defense a pass in the LA game because the Rams were intent on getting the ball out quickly; the pressure should have been better against the Falcons.)

Do you review the games. Aldon Smith has been all over the field.

gimmesix · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
Do you review the games. Aldon Smith has been all over the field.

Rewatched the second game, but I didn't specifically focus on Smith. My recall is I've seen him mostly around the line of scrimmage. I'll go back and look, though, because my recall has been wrong before.

DanA · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
Aldon Smith is not playing the same position as DLaw or Griffen.

When they play a 4-3, Aldon Smith is a LB.
- DLaw/Griffen never play as a 4-3 LB.

When Aldon Smith plays as a 4-3 LB, he is replaced what would have been a player like Damian Wilson in Marinelli's defense.
- You wouldn't be worried about Wilson dropping into coverage.

Aldon Smith is what... 30lbs heavier than Damian Wilson?

Base defense is already becoming niche in the NFL in favor of Nickel and your then making it weaker against the pass by playing a 280lbs LB in coverage.

DanA · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
They did not play a high percentage of snaps in a 3-4 for the Falcons game.

A majority of snaps were in Nickel with a 4 man DL but the DEs were often standing up.

They play a 4-man DL with:
2 DEs standing up
1 DE standing up
0 DEs standing up

As I said, we had D-linemen drop into coverage at least a dozen times and Probably 50% of them were Aldon Smith.

I know Aldon Smith is playing a different roll to Griffen/Lawrence and I don’t like it. That’s the roll I wanted Jaylon playing.

The changes I’d like to see are:

Aldon Smith to DE
Griffen/Lawrence playing from a 3 point stance
Jaylon playing the DPR role
A hybrid safety/LB signed or traded for or Thompson in the box and Carr as a 3rd safety.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

DanA said:
Aldon Smith is what... 30lbs heavier than Damian Wilson?

Base defense is already becoming niche in the NFL in favor of Nickel and your then making it weaker against the pass by playing a 280lbs LB in coverage.

They played more snaps in Nickel than anything else.

The big 4-3 was only used a few times.

The used more 3-4 than 4-3.

I don't think Smith is playing at 280. That was an off-season weight and unfortunately teams rarely have accurate weight listings on their published rosters.

FYI, Aldon Smith ran 0.01 faster in the forty than Damien Wilson based on hand held times. Based on electronic times Wilson was 0.04 faster but they changed the method of electronic timing between when Aldon Smith was drafted and when Wilson was drafted.

DanA · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
They played more snaps in Nickel than anything else.

The big 4-3 was only used a few times.

The used more 3-4 than 4-3.

I don't think Smith is playing at 280. That was an off-season weight and unfortunately teams rarely have accurate weight listings on their published rosters.

FYI, Aldon Smith ran 0.01 faster in the forty than Damien Wilson based on hand held times. Based on electronic times Wilson was 0.04 faster but they changed the method of electronic timing between when Aldon Smith was drafted and when Wilson was drafted.

Aldon may have come down a little from 280 lbs but he’s still much bigger than when he posted that 40 time you are referring too. And it’s not straight line speed that’s the worry, it’s change in direction. And I didn’t like Wilson in coverage anyway, he was a liability.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

DanA said:
As I said, we had D-linemen drop into coverage at least a dozen times and Probably 50% of them were Aldon Smith.

I know Aldon Smith is playing a different roll to Griffen/Lawrence and I don’t like it. That’s the roll I wanted Jaylon playing.

Again, if that was as a 4-3 LB then that player would not be rushing the passer anyway (i.e. Damien Wilson).

Many situations are going to either be a quick pass or a run. Rushing the passer is a waste of a player on those if that player can be in coverage.

Last season the Cowboys struggled with giving up to many short passes that ended up as 1st downs or enough on 2nd down that it resulted in 3rd and short.

Marinelli had no answer for that other than more hustle by players. The new scheme has options to change things up. Dropping a pass rusher into coverage to stop quick throws is one of those options.

What you are leaving out is that they often blitzed a player on the other side when a DE dropped into coverage.

A DE dropping into coverage was not the problem in the Falcons game.

Nobody as in zero defenders covering the TE and giving up a long catch and run for a TD was a problem.

Almost giving up a big play to Julio Jones because both Safeties stayed within 5 yards of the line was almost a big problem.

Unfortunately they're going to have to play a simpleton scheme until the players have more time to learn the scheme.

DanA · Sep 25, 2020

And an FYI.

I saw Antwon Woods drop into coverage.
I saw Lawrence drop into coverage
I saw Armstrong in coverage 2-3 times
I saw Aldon Smith in coverage 6-8 times

Yes, more often than not when a linemen drops into coverage we saw a blitz from somewhere.

We are probably talking 15-20% of defensive snaps that a D-linemen is in coverage. That’s too much.

xwalker · Sep 25, 2020

DanA said:
Aldon may have come down a little from 280 lbs but he’s still much bigger than when he posted that 40 time you are referring too. And it’s not straight line speed that’s the worry, it’s change in direction. And I didn’t like Wilson in coverage anyway, he was a liability.

And this overall coverage scheme is different and is integrated into how they use Aldon Smith.

This scheme focuses in stopping the run with the front 7 which frees up allows for keeping both Safeties back out of the box which is better for coverage.

The old scheme often had the SS right up almost on the line. That meant it was easier to isolate a player like DLB Damien Wilson in coverage.

You only look at things in isolation without looking at the big picture of the scheme. i.e. comparing Wilson directly to Smith without understanding that the bigger Smith is one of the reasons they can play the run with the front 7 instead of always bringing a Safety down to help stop the run while lowering that Safety's effectiveness against the pass.

DanA · Sep 25, 2020

xwalker said:
Again, if that was as a 4-3 LB then that player would not be rushing the passer anyway (i.e. Damien Wilson).

Many situations are going to either be a quick pass or a run. Rushing the passer is a waste of a player on those if that player can be in coverage.

Last season the Cowboys struggled with giving up to many short passes that ended up as 1st downs or enough on 2nd down that it resulted in 3rd and short.

Marinelli had no answer for that other than more hustle by players. The new scheme has options to change things up. Dropping a pass rusher into coverage to stop quick throws is one of those options.

What you are leaving out is that they often blitzed a player on the other side when a DE dropped into coverage.

A DE dropping into coverage was not the problem in the Falcons game.

Nobody as in zero defenders covering the TE and giving up a long catch and run for a TD was a problem.

Almost giving up a big play to Julio Jones because both Safeties stayed within 5 yards of the line was almost a big problem.

Unfortunately they're going to have to play a simpleton scheme until the players have more time to learn the scheme.

I thought the great thing about this coaching staff was they’d fit the scheme to the players rather than the other way around.

Did we really need to trial Griffen/Lawrence in a 2 point stance. Is it a surprise that a highly complex defense is causing problem in this Covid season?

The bottom line is I think Nolan has given several ill-suited assignments to players and it’s limited pressure and not been effective in coverage.

Cowboys Defensive Alignments

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