If the Giants can do it, why can't we (Defense)

JoeKing

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And what was the reason we also were mediocre on defense under Marinelli, Richard, Kiffen, Ryan ... ?

In fact, the last time our defense was decent was right after we got Wade Phillips, which just happens to coincide with Parcells investing in it. We got Ware and Spears in the first round in 2005 to add to a first-round corner we drafted in 2003 (Newman). We drafted another first-round DL/OLB in 2007 in Spencer. We hit on some later-round picks (Canty, Ratliff and Hatcher. Then, when Parcells left, we let all that work unravel when we could have had an elite unit by the time the offense got going.

I'm not saying Nolan is a great defensive coach or any of those other guys. But if you're not giving them much to work with, you're not going to get great results even if you do have a great DC.
What is your point? Are you so hell-bent to continue to bellyache over previous seasons that you can't focus on what's going on right now? What happened in the past with Marinelli, Richard, Kiffen, Ryan is spilled milk. Get over it and pay attention to what's going on right now. There is plenty of talent on the defense to get better results than we are currently getting. It's the coaching on defense that is failing this organization. They must be fired! Stop making excuses for their failure by blaming players that have not been coached properly. There was no tackling permitted during training camp. Do you understand this?
 

Cowboyny

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The Giants have invested in their defense. Dallas has one first-round pick on its unit (LVE) and no significant free agents as far as investment goes.

Here's what we've got:

DE Aldon Smith (1st-rounder, out of football five years)
DT Antwuan Woods (undrafted)
DT Neville Gallimore (3rd-rounder)
DT Tyrone Crawford (3rd-rounder)
DE DeMarcus Lawrence (2nd-rounder)

LB Jaylon Smith (2nd-rounder)
LB LVE (1st-rounder)

CB Anthony Brown (6th-rounder)
CB Trevon Diggs (2nd-rounder)
S Xavier Woods (6th-rounder)
S Donovan Wilson (6th-rounder)

The Giants have two first-rounders and a second-rounder starting on their DL, one acquired through a trade; spent to get Martinez; spent to get Bradberry; traded for Peppers ...

If they stuck with just their draft picks, they'd be in just as bad of shape as us. Essentially, they have five first-round quality players on their defense and only drafted one of them.

We have two first-round quality players on our defense (and one has missed a lot of this season with injury).

If they continue the strategy of building through the draft, they need to allocate premium draft capital towards the defense.
 

gimmesix

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What is your point? Are you so hell-bent to continue to bellyache over previous seasons that you can't focus on what's going on right now? What happened in the past with Marinelli, Richard, Kiffen, Ryan is spilled milk. Get over it and pay attention to what's going on right now. There is plenty of talent on the defense to get better results than we are currently getting. It's the coaching on defense that is failing this organization. They must be fired! Stop making excuses for their failure by blaming players that have not been coached properly. There was no tackling permitted during training camp. Do you understand this?

I see this season has you on the cranky side.

Having poor resources makes it a lot tougher to be a good coordinator. That doesn't mean I want to keep Nolan. The results obviously need to be better than they have no matter what he has to work with. He has the rest of the season to show if he can do better, and if he can't, he needs to be kicked to the curb.

But the acquisition of players and the coaching are both to blame for the failure. Do you understand this?
 

gimmesix

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If they continue the strategy of building through the draft, they need to allocate premium draft capital towards the defense.

That's the problem, though. They allocated draft resources more to the offense under Garrett to try to build up that side of the ball. Meanwhile, the defense was mostly neglected, getting by with a lot of bargain pick ups and lower draft picks that kept us from having any semblance of balance.

Now, we've waited until the offensive line we built is starting to come apart, so if we draft premium draft picks to the defensive side and slow-build that side of the ball, we won't have the offense to support it.

You've got to make use of both the draft and free agency in order to win because the days of being able to stack your team are long gone. FA just doesn't allow for it.
 

gjkoeppen

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The Giants Defense was one of the league worst last season, I believed they finished as the 30th ranked defense. They rank in the teens thus far this year.

-Just like the Cowboys, they have a brand new DC, new hybrid scheme, yet you don't hear from the players how complicated it is. Coming from a 3-4 front, the transition is somewhat easier, but still doesn't excuse the Cowboy failures.

-In the off-season, two fa signings have made a huge difference, signing a legitimate #1 CB in Bradberry and signing MLB Blake Martinez. Could the Cowboys find two impact starters to turnaround their unit?

-Giants have no pass rushers to speak of, yet they have more team sacks then the Cowboys. The biggest difference is that they are ranked #7 against the run, where the Cowboys are dead last at #32. This allows their defense more chances to rush the passer.

As I have stated before, it's clear how to fix our defense, have to get better at stopping the run, to have any chance of success.

By looking at the Giants, it just shows how quickly a defensive unit can be turned around. Hit on a few players and it could take place in a hurry.





The Cowboys have been terrible on defending against the run, but the Cowboys haven't been running a 4-3 or 3-4 defense. It's been a 4-2-5 defense Lots of teams run a 4-2-5 defense on passing downs, but they don't run that on 1st downs like the Cowboys have. Just how well is a 4-2-5 defense going to stop the run? Not stopping the run and all the other failures there has been on defense I lay at the feet of Nolan and being permitted to install a very complicated convoluted defense that makes player fit his defense instead of a defense that fits the players strengths and doing all this with no off season programs or preseason games to install this defense.
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dmq

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Giants defense got noticeably better when Leonard Williams got there.
 

buybuydandavis

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I am not claiming the defense will not suck but,

LVE is back from injury
Lee is back from injury and provides depth
Dlaw is getting healthy, and looks like he is improving
Diggs is getting more experience
Gregory is back, and he will get better
Awuzie is coming back, and will improve the defense
There are young dt's and lb'ers getting reps and experience

Addition by subtraction.
Poe, Worley, Griffen.
Next up - Jaylon.

Teams aren't *historically* bad for lack of talent. Every year there are teams bereft of talent. It takes lack of will to play.
 

nightrain

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The Giants Defense was one of the league worst last season, I believed they finished as the 30th ranked defense. They rank in the teens thus far this year.

-Just like the Cowboys, they have a brand new DC, new hybrid scheme, yet you don't hear from the players how complicated it is. Coming from a 3-4 front, the transition is somewhat easier, but still doesn't excuse the Cowboy failures.

-In the off-season, two fa signings have made a huge difference, signing a legitimate #1 CB in Bradberry and signing MLB Blake Martinez. Could the Cowboys find two impact starters to turnaround their unit?

-Giants have no pass rushers to speak of, yet they have more team sacks then the Cowboys. The biggest difference is that they are ranked #7 against the run, where the Cowboys are dead last at #32. This allows their defense more chances to rush the passer.

As I have stated before, it's clear how to fix our defense, have to get better at stopping the run, to have any chance of success.

By looking at the Giants, it just shows how quickly a defensive unit can be turned around. Hit on a few players and it could take place in a hurry.
Not if they keep drafting offense in the 1st.
 

JoeKing

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I see this season has you on the cranky side.

Having poor resources makes it a lot tougher to be a good coordinator. That doesn't mean I want to keep Nolan. The results obviously need to be better than they have no matter what he has to work with. He has the rest of the season to show if he can do better, and if he can't, he needs to be kicked to the curb.

But the acquisition of players and the coaching are both to blame for the failure. Do you understand this?
You don't get to ignore my question and then ask your own. I asked first. What does it do to a young team with no preseason games and limited physical interaction with each other when the new coaching staff neglects to allow any tackling? Zero tackles! I really want an answer to that question. Don't blame the players when the coaching is doing that.
 

CowboyoWales

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You don't get to ignore my question and then ask your own. I asked first. What does it do to a young team with no preseason games and limited physical interaction with each other when the new coaching staff neglects to allow any tackling? Zero tackles! I really want an answer to that question. Don't blame the players when the coaching is doing that.

Pretty much similar for all sides......er "young side"??

Tell me what system (if any) Poe was able to play?

Personnel at DT where just inadequate to play in the NFL (as are certain back-ups in the O-Line).

Getting players like LVE back are going to help stop the run as he brings the football invariable of being able to read a game unlike Jaylon (and a lesser extent Thomas) who tend to be susceptible to play action and draw plays.

The best coach cant teach football instinct and if a player isnt motivated and hungry that's his personal issue.....hence some of Lawrence's comments, I think he is convinced some of his fellow players aren't putting in 100%.
 

JoeKing

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Pretty much similar for all sides......er "young side"??

Tell me what system (if any) Poe was able to play?

Personnel at DT where just inadequate to play in the NFL (as are certain back-ups in the O-Line).

Getting players like LVE back are going to help stop the run as he brings the football invariable of being able to read a game unlike Jaylon (and a lesser extent Thomas) who tend to be susceptible to play action and draw plays.

The best coach cant teach football instinct and if a player isnt motivated and hungry that's his personal issue.....hence some of Lawrence's comments, I think he is convinced some of his fellow players aren't putting in 100%.
Poe should have never been a Cowboy. If players aren't putting in 100% then they should be identified and dealt with on a case by case basis.
 
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