Marcellus Wiley off his meds

HungryLion

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CowboyinMD said:
The reason why this is even a debate is because Dallas will potentially have a top 5 draft pick. Whenever you're drafting that high, you have a better shot if landing a franchise QB. And a QB of equal or better ability of Dak, on a team friendly "prove it kid" rookie 4-year deal, is worth it's weight in gold, because that capital saved by not signing Dak would allow the team more flexibility to sign other key FAs to help compliment the draft in fixing the other needs (especially on defense).

Now, on the flip side, especially if they win another game or 2 and end up drafting between 6-10 instead of top 5, I could also see them remain "all in" on Dak and use that pick on a franchise LT or on D. I honestly think it's a matter of where they are drafting. Win a few more games and I think Dak is more likely to come back; as of now I would already put the odds greater than 50% that he gets tagged.

Keep in mind that Dak was such a value pick in the 2016 draft. I would argue his numbers are better than Wentz or Goff.

But Dak at 37-40 mil/year vs. a guy like Justin Fields or especially Trevor Lawrence on a rookie contract? That's a tough predicament, especially for a team with so many holes to fill. Although I don't see Dallas being able to sniff Lawrence unless they overpay in trading up, and the draft gurus like Jimmy Johnson would argue that would be a bad move for a team with so many holes to fill.

I think a huge question needs to be asked: even with Dak, Dallas is a bad team, at least on defense. How long would it take to fix that defense, i.e. how many of Dak's prime years of what would be $35-40 mil a pop would be wasted in the rebuilding process? If it's going to take a few years or more, you might as well go into full rebuild mode with a 21-22 year old QB than 28.
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yeah I agree a lot with you.


I am a pro Dak guy. I think the cowboys can win with him. Even if they pay him.


That being said. If you have a top 5 pick and a chance at a HIGH END QB prospect. You have to at least consider it and the scouts and coaches have to do their due diligence and scout the hell out of the QB’s.

However, previously the idea of drafting a QB in the mid to late first or later to replace Dak. Just didn’t appeal to me.

the hit rates on QB’s that late are just so so so low.


If the scouts and McCarthy see a QB Like maybe a Wilson or Fields and think “he is our guy. He can be elite” and they draft him. Then I’m ok with it.

if they decide. We are going to go defense heavy and try to rebuild the entire defense and try to win with Dak. Then I’m cool with that too.



who I don’t trust is Jerry and his spawn.
 
blumayne38

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RonnieT24 said:
Perhaps not.. but if I have one of those guys I am not walking away from him for the "maybe" the front office will pick the right guys on defense as well as to find a QB to play at a level that gives us a chance to capitalize on all the other transcendent talent that is going to magically show up the minute we get rid of Dak.
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PJTHEDOORS said:
A healthy Dak + Draft all defense.
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Draft all defense?? In the hopes they pan out to be good players. And bank that dak is maybe the same player he was. (which isn’t great to begin with) Nah if we can Dallas should draft a QB. And put resources into all 3 phases of the team.
 
blumayne38

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DakPresgoat said:
yeah I agree a lot with you.


I am a pro Dak guy. I think the cowboys can win with him. Even if they pay him.


That being said. If you have a top 5 pick and a chance at a HIGH END QB prospect. You have to at least consider it and the scouts and coaches have to do their due diligence and scout the hell out of the QB’s.

However, previously the idea of drafting a QB in the mid to late first or later to replace Dak. Just didn’t appeal to me.

the hit rates on QB’s that late are just so so so low.


If the scouts and McCarthy see a QB Like maybe a Wilson or Fields and think “he is our guy. He can be elite” and they draft him. Then I’m ok with it.

if they decide. We are going to go defense heavy and try to rebuild the entire defense and try to win with Dak. Then I’m cool with that too.



who I don’t trust is Jerry and his spawn.
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I see what you mean. But at this point even a mid round QB can probably give you the same success as a dalton or dak. The appealing part about this is we will have plenty of wiggle room in trade and FA. Because we will have a QB that’s on a rookie deal. I’m not a numbers guy but that sounds really good to me. We are not hurting for talent, our talent is just getting hurt.
 
RonnieT24

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McKDaddy said:
its a fifth year player versus a 2nd year player so yeah there are areas where Dak is further along. but for upside and cost, Murray wins by a mile. his kind of true duel threat could actually have some success on a team like the 2020 Cowboys.
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If you read my post I didn't JUST compare Murray to Dak. I compared ALL the first round QBs to come into the league since Dak, including the ones from his draft, to Dak. The only one who has outperformed Dak is Mahomes and the only other one even on Dak's level is Watson. The rest either have not ascended to Dak's level yet or in the case of Paxton Lynch, Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold, probably never will. Come to think of it you could probably say the same about Goff and Wentz. Though they have had stretches where they have played better than Dak, overall Dak has been better and he was certainly the best of that group this season. Lamar Jackson had a great run last year but has regressed badly this year. The jury foreman had almost handed in the card on him but had to pull it back after the playoff meltdown and subsequent stinker season he is having now. He now ranks firmly below Dak too where I might have been inclined to rank him ahead of Dak last year.

I have been consistent in my stance that Dak has earned his deal. But he and his camp need to recognize that whatever deal he signs needs to help with the cap. Otherwise there is no point in keeping him as the team will crumble around him and he will spend the next 5 years trying to carry a team of rookies and castoffs. Basically Romo 2.0. If he doesn't have to sense to see that then I don't want him here because he will have shown himself to prioritize money and ego over team and winning. That's never really been who he is.. so I honestly don't expect it now. But the Joneses can't come with some cockamamie 80 cents on the dollar offer with basically a two year guarantee and BS signing bonus that's half what others have received. They need to come correct.. make the dollars match Dak's value then work with the agent to construct the contract in such a way that we have room to maneuver under the cap. It may be difficult .. but who cares? That's what they (Stephen and the agent) get paid to do.. so go do it.
 
Praxit

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..let it be known. Dak is getting paid. The Jones will pay Dak. This team is Driftwood without Dak.
 

stilltheguru

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Bullflop said:
It really seems odd to me that Wiley would be one to actually say when a player deserves to be paid.

If, ever, there was a player to be undeserving by failing to earn his wages, it was Marcellus Wiley. :rolleyes:
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He admits this many times though
 
CowboyoWales

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CowboyinMD said:
The reason why this is even a debate is because Dallas will potentially have a top 5 draft pick. Whenever you're drafting that high, you have a better shot if landing a franchise QB. And a QB of equal or better ability of Dak, on a team friendly "prove it kid" rookie 4-year deal, is worth it's weight in gold, because that capital saved by not signing Dak would allow the team more flexibility to sign other key FAs to help compliment the draft in fixing the other needs (especially on defense).

Now, on the flip side, especially if they win another game or 2 and end up drafting between 6-10 instead of top 5, I could also see them remain "all in" on Dak and use that pick on a franchise LT or on D. I honestly think it's a matter of where they are drafting. Win a few more games and I think Dak is more likely to come back; as of now I would already put the odds greater than 50% that he gets tagged.

Keep in mind that Dak was such a value pick in the 2016 draft. I would argue his numbers are better than Wentz or Goff.

But Dak at 37-40 mil/year vs. a guy like Justin Fields or especially Trevor Lawrence on a rookie contract? That's a tough predicament, especially for a team with so many holes to fill. Although I don't see Dallas being able to sniff Lawrence unless they overpay in trading up, and the draft gurus like Jimmy Johnson would argue that would be a bad move for a team with so many holes to fill.

I think a huge question needs to be asked: even with Dak, Dallas is a bad team, at least on defense. How long would it take to fix that defense, i.e. how many of Dak's prime years of what would be $35-40 mil a pop would be wasted in the rebuilding process? If it's going to take a few years or more, you might as well go into full rebuild mode with a 21-22 year old QB than 28.
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Good balanced post..... has no place here ;)
 
CowboyoWales

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RonnieT24 said:
If you read my post I didn't JUST compare Murray to Dak. I compared ALL the first round QBs to come into the league since Dak, including the ones from his draft, to Dak. The only one who has outperformed Dak is Mahomes and the only other one even on Dak's level is Watson. The rest either have not ascended to Dak's level yet or in the case of Paxton Lynch, Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold, probably never will. Come to think of it you could probably say the same about Goff and Wentz. Though they have had stretches where they have played better than Dak, overall Dak has been better and he was certainly the best of that group this season. Lamar Jackson had a great run last year but has regressed badly this year. The jury foreman had almost handed in the card on him but had to pull it back after the playoff meltdown and subsequent stinker season he is having now. He now ranks firmly below Dak too where I might have been inclined to rank him ahead of Dak last year.

I have been consistent in my stance that Dak has earned his deal. But he and his camp need to recognize that whatever deal he signs needs to help with the cap. Otherwise there is no point in keeping him as the team will crumble around him and he will spend the next 5 years trying to carry a team of rookies and castoffs. Basically Romo 2.0. If he doesn't have to sense to see that then I don't want him here because he will have shown himself to prioritize money and ego over team and winning. That's never really been who he is.. so I honestly don't expect it now. But the Joneses can't come with some cockamamie 80 cents on the dollar offer with basically a two year guarantee and BS signing bonus that's half what others have received. They need to come correct.. make the dollars match Dak's value then work with the agent to construct the contract in such a way that we have room to maneuver under the cap. It may be difficult .. but who cares? That's what they (Stephen and the agent) get paid to do.. so go do it.
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Totally depends on how you define "outperformed". It could be argued that most QB's would have "outperformed" Dak and improved their stats if they had played behind our O-Line of the last 5 years.

But that's one of the reasons there are so many fans concerned with paying him 20% of the CAP whilst our Defense props up the league.
 
RonnieT24

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CowboyoWales said:
Totally depends on how you define "outperformed". It could be argued that most QB's would have "outperformed" Dak and improved their stats if they had played behind our O-Line of the last 5 years.

But that's one of the reasons there are so many fans concerned with paying him 20% of the CAP whilst our Defense props up the league.
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I define "outperformed" as outperformed. I consider it all.. Winning percentage, passing performance, passing TDs .. red zone efficiency, 4th quarter comebacks.. Every aspect of playing the position. Not any SINGLE stat that supports this narrative or that .. All of it.. I cannot accept the copout that "well these other guys would have outperformed Dak had they played behind our line..." I have 6 games of evidence that this year that you can't just throw anybody back there and they light it up.. I can also look back to 2015 when the line was probably at its absolute peak and again, the offense with three different QBs over 11 games could not come close to what it has been with Dak overall. And if we're going to play the "if" game why can't it be argued that if you give Dak a defense as good as last year's 49ers or the Rams the year before or the 2017 Eagles, he might already have a Super Bowl ring of his own? Why do the ifs only work if they go against him?
 
TheMarathonContinues

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CowboyoWales said:
As expected you must be an obsessional Dak fan that thinks the game starts and ends with the QB.

I was referring to Demarcus not Trevor.
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Huh? I meant Lawrence as in Trevor...what did my post have to do with Dak? You sure you aren’t the one obsessed?
 
blueblood70

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CATCH17 said:
Never said it was all Dak's fault.

I was replying to someone that thought our record would be much better with Dak. I don't think he would've made any difference based on what I saw the first 4 weeks.
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i dont agree we might still be a losing season but he beats philly, maybe the steelers, and maybe split Washington, dont think game 2 washignton MM takes that same risk 4points down as might be up..we lost the philly game because of Noonch that win, PB well if GG can get us close Dak puts us over the top..? etc etc hard to know if teams game plan the same etc however we couldn't score td in what 3 straight games, think Dak could overcome that..

stil ha to win with that defense early but coaching and defense got better after the eagles game.If Daks on that team maybe we get 7-9 win the decsions possibly??
 
CowboyoWales

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rocyaice said:
Huh? I meant Lawrence as in Trevor...what did my post have to do with Dak? You sure you aren’t the one obsessed?
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You replied to my mention of Lawrence (which you highlighted). I mentioned him as being a top 5 paid defensive player.

May I suggest you read before posting.
 
FVSTONE

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blumayne38 said:
This dude trying to convince fans DAK 100% need to be paid. Lmao. Don’t know what’s worse his take or his years on Dallas.
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Dak wasn't worth $35 million before he got hurt and he sure the hell isn't worth it now. If all these experts think he should be paid a yacht full of money then let these experts pool their monies together and take care of ole' Daky. JJ understands that a one man band isn't going to put this club in the playoffs and he let Dak screw himself by not caving on his contract demands.
 
CowboyoWales

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RonnieT24 said:
I define "outperformed" as outperformed. I consider it all.. Winning percentage, passing performance, passing TDs .. red zone efficiency, 4th quarter comebacks.. Every aspect of playing the position. Not any SINGLE stat that supports this narrative or that .. All of it.. I cannot accept the copout that "well these other guys would have outperformed Dak had they played behind our line..." I have 6 games of evidence that this year that you can't just throw anybody back there and they light it up.. I can also look back to 2015 when the line was probably at its absolute peak and again, the offense with three different QBs over 11 games could not come close to what it has been with Dak overall. And if we're going to play the "if" game why can't it be argued that if you give Dak a defense as good as last year's 49ers or the Rams the year before or the 2017 Eagles, he might already have a Super Bowl ring of his own? Why do the ifs only work if they go against him?
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Why do fans of Dak feel compelled to have to make him appear godlike.

There's an overarching feel from Dak Obsessives that anyone who thinks we should move on from Dak is blaming him for the ills of the team.

He's a good QB, but at 20% of the CAP and with an awful defense we arent going to be competing for SB.....which is the ONLY thing that matters.

As for your comments about IF he had a good defense....stats say he did in 2018....still no NFCC game.
 
HungryLion

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blumayne38 said:
I see what you mean. But at this point even a mid round QB can probably give you the same success as a dalton or dak. The appealing part about this is we will have plenty of wiggle room in trade and FA. Because we will have a QB that’s on a rookie deal. I’m not a numbers guy but that sounds really good to me. We are not hurting for talent, our talent is just getting hurt.
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I would say. Based on looking at the history of QB’s drafted in the first round the past 10-12 years. The chance of a QB being drafted in the mid to late first, and being as good as Dak is at QB. Is less than 40%. If I remember correctly a year or two ago I looked all this up. The % was like 30%.

so a 30% chance of being as good or better than Dak. 70% chance of not being as good.

If the QB falls into the 70% Does the cap savings outweighs the decline in QB play?


And that 70% includes QB’s who are just awful. I think you have like 40% of them who were just dreadful and out of the league in a couple years from sucking so bad.


it’s a high risk proposition.
 
HungryLion

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CowboyoWales said:
Why do fans of Dak feel compelled to have to make him appear godlike.

There's an overarching feel from Dak Obsessives that anyone who thinks we should move on from Dak is blaming him for the ills of the team.

He's a good QB, but at 20% of the CAP and with an awful defense we arent going to be competing for SB.....which is the ONLY thing that matters.

As for your comments about IF he had a good defense....stats say he did in 2018....still no NFCC game.
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the defense in 2018 was the main reason the cowboys got bounced from the playoffs.

in the game the cowboys were eliminated..... they gave up 30 points and over 280 yards rushing. They also forced zero turnovers in 2 playoff games.

that’s not good defense. Not at all. No QB wins a super bowl with a defense playing like that in the playoffs.


If the cowboys draft a QB. Then so be it. But no matter who they have at QB. That kind of defensive play isn’t going to win a super bowl. I don’t care if Pat Mahomes is the QB.
 
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