Cowboys need to resign Dak before Baker and Josh Allen reset the market

CowboysFaninHouston said:

or if you build a good offense, with a good QB, then a good defense (right metrics) could also help accomplish success much easier. as to the point you make, its not a single formula, its which is easier to do. in order to win with guys like Smith, Keenum, McCoy, etc. you need to have a very strong defensive support and lots of strong offensive supporting cast. Denver did it when Manning wasn't at his best, but they had a heck of a defense, with the likes of Ware, Malik Jackson, Talib, Ward, Von Miller (at least two HOFers)....only a couple of them were FAs and the rest were drafted.. Ravens did it and they had at least three HOFers on the team, all of whom were drafted. in one season, they had an all time best defense.....it will take a lot of great players to build a defense to over come short comings of an offense being led by players like Mccoy, Smith or Keenum (btw, none of whom have won) or an Older Manning or Flacco who won with extrmely strong defensive support).....

on the other hand, lots of teams win on a hot QB (foles catching lightning in a bottle) or good QB play and a decent defense.....you need that one player, not 4....a QB makes a lot of difference on the offensive performance as for defense, one single player can't lift a whole defense and have as much impact.

and we saw a retread like rivers....had a really good team around him, great coaching and he flamed out. couldn't get over the top....aging veterans are available for a reason....specially QBs.

we have seen more teams fail, flame out with average QB play than the other way around...

so which odds do you prefer?

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

...Dak vs. Dalton is not splitting hairs....perhaps splitting Dragon hairs (lol)... there is a world of difference between Dak and Dalton as evident this year....

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

or if you build a good offense, with a good QB, then a good defense (right metrics) could also help accomplish success much easier. as to the point you make, its not a single formula, its which is easier to do. in order to win with guys like Smith, Keenum, McCoy, etc. you need to have a very strong defensive support and lots of strong offensive supporting cast. Denver did it when Manning wasn't at his best, but they had a heck of a defense, with the likes of Ware, Malik Jackson, Talib, Ward, Von Miller (at least two HOFers)....only a couple of them were FAs and the rest were drafted.. Ravens did it and they had at least three HOFers on the team, all of whom were drafted. in one season, they had an all time best defense.....it will take a lot of great players to build a defense to over come short comings of an offense being led by players like Mccoy, Smith or Keenum (btw, none of whom have won) or an Older Manning or Flacco who won with extrmely strong defensive support).....

on the other hand, lots of teams win on a hot QB (foles catching lightning in a bottle) or good QB play and a decent defense.....you need that one player, not 4....a QB makes a lot of difference on the offensive performance as for defense, one single player can't lift a whole defense and have as much impact.

and we saw a retread like rivers....had a really good team around him, great coaching and he flamed out. couldn't get over the top....aging veterans are available for a reason....specially QBs.

we have seen more teams fail, flame out with average QB play than the other way around...

so which odds do you prefer?

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CATCH17 said:

The key is building the team.

It's not the QB.. There is about 20 QB's that get similar results in this league and go as the team go.

That is why a QB like Andy Dalton can come in and get Dak Prescott type of results for the team.

If you want to pay the QB.. Then fine.. Be like the Vikings, pay your Kirk Cousins type, and enjoy being mediocre.

I'd rather team build than be stuck in mediocrity.

I'm also not scared to draft a QB. Especially since the league is running more college concepts making it easier for guys to transition.

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CowboyoWales said:

So to sum up, you dont necessarily need an elite QB to win a SB..

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blueblood70 said:

and when did dak and romo get us over the top that the point man ..rivers got as far as where we end up most years at Best..that the point 9-7 8-8 1-3 6-10 it can be done cheaper until you hopefully find another rookie like Prescott or better mahomes, herbert, falls to you when you least expect it..they were out of the top 5 so who knows..just spitballing..

put Prescott money and draft picks acquired trading him the next 2 years in the defense and sub in some retreads and hope to then get Dak with the defense , st and coaching hit their strides..

again just hypotheticals..

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BobbyFlame469 said:

Josh Allen and even Baker Mayfield are expected to command north of 38~40 million per year.

These are quarterbacks who both have career passer ratings over 10 ENTIRE points less than Dak (although Josh Allen has been improving)

That laughable 40 million per year price tag is going to be considered a steal in just 1 to 2 off seasons

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

or if you build a good offense, with a good QB, then a good defense (right metrics) could also help accomplish success much easier. as to the point you make, its not a single formula, its which is easier to do. in order to win with guys like Smith, Keenum, McCoy, etc. you need to have a very strong defensive support and lots of strong offensive supporting cast. Denver did it when Manning wasn't at his best, but they had a heck of a defense, with the likes of Ware, Malik Jackson, Talib, Ward, Von Miller (at least two HOFers)....only a couple of them were FAs and the rest were drafted.. Ravens did it and they had at least three HOFers on the team, all of whom were drafted. in one season, they had an all time best defense.....it will take a lot of great players to build a defense to over come short comings of an offense being led by players like Mccoy, Smith or Keenum (btw, none of whom have won) or an Older Manning or Flacco who won with extrmely strong defensive support).....

on the other hand, lots of teams win on a hot QB (foles catching lightning in a bottle) or good QB play and a decent defense.....you need that one player, not 4....a QB makes a lot of difference on the offensive performance as for defense, one single player can't lift a whole defense and have as much impact.

and we saw a retread like rivers....had a really good team around him, great coaching and he flamed out. couldn't get over the top....aging veterans are available for a reason....specially QBs.

we have seen more teams fail, flame out with average QB play than the other way around...

so which odds do you prefer?

Click to expand...

CowboysFaninHouston said:

or if you build a good offense, with a good QB, then a good defense (right metrics) could also help accomplish success much easier. as to the point you make, its not a single formula, its which is easier to do. in order to win with guys like Smith, Keenum, McCoy, etc. you need to have a very strong defensive support and lots of strong offensive supporting cast. Denver did it when Manning wasn't at his best, but they had a heck of a defense, with the likes of Ware, Malik Jackson, Talib, Ward, Von Miller (at least two HOFers)....only a couple of them were FAs and the rest were drafted.. Ravens did it and they had at least three HOFers on the team, all of whom were drafted. in one season, they had an all time best defense.....it will take a lot of great players to build a defense to over come short comings of an offense being led by players like Mccoy, Smith or Keenum (btw, none of whom have won) or an Older Manning or Flacco who won with extrmely strong defensive support).....

on the other hand, lots of teams win on a hot QB (foles catching lightning in a bottle) or good QB play and a decent defense.....you need that one player, not 4....a QB makes a lot of difference on the offensive performance as for defense, one single player can't lift a whole defense and have as much impact.

and we saw a retread like rivers....had a really good team around him, great coaching and he flamed out. couldn't get over the top....aging veterans are available for a reason....specially QBs.

we have seen more teams fail, flame out with average QB play than the other way around...

so which odds do you prefer?

Click to expand...

CowboysFaninHouston said:

the point was going FA route for QBs doesn't work 95% of the time.....there is a reason they hit FA......
and didn't we draft Dak? so now dump and go draft another one HOPING it works out, if it doesn't wash, rinse repeat!? 4 out of 5 first round QBs fail....you like those odds?

Mahomes won on his rookie contract. got the biggest NFL contract ever....do you assume he will never win another superbowl? you don't think Wilson will ever win another superbowl?

I have said it multiple times, you can't build a defense through FA. you have to draft well and until that happens we are stuck with offense only

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Swagger said:

We can talk about it all day but ultimately we have no say.

I don't agree that Rivers flamed out vs the Bills. He played well but Allen simply played better but that was not surprising given the latter played at an MVP level this season. The Colts played well and won both lines of scrimmage. Bills arguably only win if they have Allen, Mahomes, Rodgers, Lamar if he threw well or an on song Wilson. Possibly Watson as well. Just having an elite passer like Brady wouldn't have got it done. Bills don't have much of a running game so their QB needs to be an extension of their running game as well as a threat through the air. That's the way the league has been going for a few years. Prescott in his rookie season had the potential through the air and had it in his legs. But he had looked less of a threat with his legs even before the leg injury so it's arguably a good time to move on before giving up a King's ransom to keep him.

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Swagger said:

I prefer good QB play on a rookie deal.

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

wait, now you defend Rivers, because allen played, but same dak detractors blame Dak for not beating Philly last year....how about Wentz played better!!!.... it seems standards of measure change from poster to poster and from post to post...

btw, I will be on record. I don't like running QBs, unless its strategic at certain points or to extend play. consistently using your QB as a rushing threat is not going to lead to championships. QBs are there to throw and throwing from the pocket effectively. that's why I really don't think Jackson is that great. he rushes a ton. but I can never see him in superbowl. good defenses will render him ineffective.

and its not a king's ransom. its market value or top 10 QBs. at some point teams will win with highly paid QBs....if you don't think that can happen, then Mahomes will never win another championship. btw, Brady won it on his first big contract at market value before he decided to give home town discount. Rodgers, Eli, Peyton, Brees, etc......

teams over draft QB, reach, always looking because its the most important position in football and rather difficult to fill it.....and when you find one, you want to keep him. instead of going back to the draft and starting all over again. and its the cheapest most economical way of building a team that can compete.

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

who? 4 out of 5 first round QBs fail......so you have a 80% chance of failing and 20% chance of succeeding....

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Swagger said:

The difference is that Rivers played well versus the Bills. He made some nice throws, threw a couple of touchdowns against a good defense who had made numerous plays in recent weeks and turned over the ball yet he managed the game against the hottest team in the league. Prescott put in a poor showing versus the Eagles especially given the personnel they had in their secondary although I agree that Wentz played well.

I don't regard the likes of Rodgers, Mahomes, Wilson, Allen or even Watson as running quarterbacks. They are pocket passers with the ability to use their legs and make excellent throws on the run. Lamar is a one off really and his ability with his legs is so good that for me I'm willing to cut him some slack if he isn't Peyton Manning in the pocket.

Well if Dak Prescott ends up anywhere in the region of $40 million a season that's a king's ransom especially coming off a leg injury.
Come on, let's not compare Tom Brady with Dak Prescott

Mahomes is on a team friendly deal. Let's see how the Bills get on once they pay Allen. Watson balled out this season yet how many games did the Texans win? Wilson played lights out first half of the season then went off the boil and yep he isn't playing this weekend either. As another poster highlighted, Rodgers contract is actually team friendly this season but not next season. The salary cap matters.

You might think I know nothing and I spout a load of rubbish - fair enough. I suggest you watch how arguably the greatest coach in the history of the NFL plays his hand over the next 5-6 years. Bellichick will not pay a QB big money unless it's a generational type player like Rodgers and that would support my argument. If that's the case then would you disagree with his approach?

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

you are spinning rivers performance. and he has consistently failed in big games. and in the end he LOST. and I have heard the same thing about Dak against Rams and GB in the playoffs despite his out put.....we can't excuse one QB, because he had a few good throws and yet lost in the end and then nitpick to no end another one, over analyzing every single throw. and I will say it again, coaching matters....coaching is important. in game decision making by the coaches make a huge difference....

and I am not worried about his leg injury, given you and I don't have access to medical reports, or talk to the doctors and its speculation on our part based on agenda's....QBs and NFL players recover from many devastating injuries.....and he wasn't a running QB like Jackson or Murray anyway, so as long as he can set his feet, move around the pocket...I don't think and ankle injury is devastating. in fact, achilles heel injury would be much harder on an NFL player than anything else.

and I am not comparing Brady to Prescott...Brady is the GOAT....he is the only elite QB that has gotten back to the superbowl consistently.

and regardless of what we think of Mahomes...500M is a huge number.....and I am sure it will get reworked....but I go back to what everyone keeps saying....giving a QB a large market value contract will prohibit the team from being good and competitive.....and thus same for Mahomes....I guess he is not winning any superbowls any more given his large contract, but its nice to see the anti-contract crowd spin it...


and Bilicheck did pay a big QB money, Brady's first contract was market sized....and yet they won.....his subsequent contracts weren't as big and team friendly by a few million only....then again, its brady, he is marketable and his wife was loaded prior to him being loaded.....and outside of Brady how many others have given team friendly deals and what did they accomplish? and btw, Rodgers hasn't been to the superbowl in 10 years...neither has brees.

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Swagger said:

I would argue that it's often due to where those quarterbacks actually get drafted. The likes of Rosen and Darnold have largely been labelled as busts but in reality, neither have had much of a chance to prove if they can cut it or not. So much of it comes down to the offensive line and the running game for any quarterback really but especially rookies/young quarterbacks.

You look at someone like Josh Allen. His offensive line has been no better than average throughout. He had next to no weapons until this season. His play was indifferent. Suddenly he's actually given a proper WR1 and i'm sure along with a lot of hard work in between, he has arguably been the second or third best QB in the entire league this season. If they didn't bring in Diggs then we probably wouldn't have seen how good he is at accurately throwing the ball and hitting receivers.

It's why a lot of fans generally don't really have much sympathy for Dak Prescott. You look at what he has had over his entire career compared with other young quarterbacks - with the exception of Mahomes, has anyone else had so much offensive assistance during their first 4 years in the league? Yet some people still give him excuses and focus on Smith missing a game or it snowing one time or the coaching or the starting field position (Allen had terrible starting field position vs the Colts yet still made the plays to win the game). Before bailing him out in future think about the conditions that other quarterbacks have been playing in and who they have around them first!?

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Swagger said:

How am I spinning Rivers? He played well last week. He wasn't amazing but he played well enough for his team to win but Allen was exceptional and pretty much lifted his team to victory. Rivers in games and years gone by, yes he has had some disastrous moments but my reference was to his performance last week vs the Bills.
But the structure of the Mahomes contract is team friendly. They have massaged the figures and he is one of the best quarterbacks in the league.
How many combinations are there like Brady and Bellichick? An anomaly to the general rule. Kirk Cousins is generally what happens if you pay a competent NFL QB big money.

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

oh, I don't disagree on over drafting players. teams will do anything and over draft QBs. but it doesn't change the fact. most first round QBs will fail and teams over draft QBs.....and it will happen in 2021. We know rosen can't cut it. he is on his third team and only on PS. his own team abandoned him after one year. Darnold has been as much part of Jets failures as other players on that team. he is average at best.

Josh Allen is good. I don't argue that at this time. but lets see how he does in the next couple of years. one year does not make a trend. Foles caught magic in a bottle, made a great run and won a superbowl. no one mistakes Foles for a top 20 QB. I do like Allen, I am not denying he is a good QB, but when he was drafted, he was the riskiest of the bunch, coming from a small school, but I guess hind sight is 20/20. I wouldn't say he is top 3. lets put the annointing oil away as Parcells use to say....

and a lot of fans do like Dak. there is a group that's vehemently against Dak, with multitude of issues, most of which they can't even agree on, but mostly around contract value.....regardless of what some of these fans say, NFL FO personnel, 50 of them ranked Dak in the top 10....what these anti-Dak fans say thus is meaningless because none of them (including me) have the expertise and know how of the front offices of NFL....and what Dak has done, up until this year is never having a losing season, work around coaches like Garrett, turmoil in the cowboys and deal with a first year OC with all of 1 year experience.....how many other young QBs would have thrived like he did under these circumstances. most Dak detractors don't want to talk about these issues and I have asked the question multiple times, how many superbowls would brady win with Garrett as his head coach. most often its been a deafening silence. so I ask the same question give your passion for Allen. how would he have faired under garrett and Moore?

and you just took one game and made a general statement....Allen had terrible field position against Colts and he won....but how would he fair over a season? I can point to many examples that Dak had a game with terrible field position and he won the game. even against GB in his rookie year, despite the crappy start, we had the lead in the end. defense didn't hold. defense had multiple chances and couldn't make one play. a single play to seal the win. against the rams the defense gave up 250 yards of rushing....would Allen win the game against colts if the colts rushed for 250 yards?

I think Dak is a top 10 QB. I think he gives us the best chance to be competitive. I don't think $40M is above market value for top 10 NFL QBs. I don't think we should build a defense through FA (never works). I think Dak would have done much more and been in better situation if he wasn't in Dallas. I think all these other QBs would have accomplished a lot less in Dallas under Garrett.

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