Hypothetical Involving 1Tech/NT

LACowboysFan1

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ChuckA1 said:
It strikes me as odd many fans here have watched this defense struggle and get gutted by runs up the middle and still feel a talented 1T isn't needed. It amazes me, in fact. True, this is not the only missing piece, but it's an important piece, none the less.
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As long as the new dt can rush the passer AND stuff the run, having a "one trick pony" isn't the answer, if you have the big guy in the middle who stuffs the run but can't put pressure on the quarterback, then the quarterback will just step up or hang in the pocket and have lots of time to find open receivers.

Randy White had "officially" 52 sacks, but they didn't count sacks until 1982, he was All Pro 3 times prior to that, obviously he had sacks before that. I think the Cowboys have him at 111, if memory serves. He was one of the dual-purpose DTs. Pretty clear that was a big reason for the team's success during his years in Dallas.

If all you want is a 340-plus "fat guy" in the middle that just stands there, you aren't helping the team as much as it needs, DT-wise.

Problem is those guys aren't plentiful, if you don't get one in the first round doubtful you're going to get one at all...
 
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ABQCOWBOY said:
Huge. Right now, I don't believe we have a starting NT/1tech that fits this scheme. That guy is pretty critical to making the entire defense work. That would be a very valuable piece if we had that.

But I'm curious, when you say top 5, are you saying spend a top 5 pick on one or one of the top 5 in the NFL right now?

I would not spend a top 5 pick on one but I'd love to have a guy who is top 5 at the position.
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Top 5 at his position, not a top 5 pick. You might be able to get a guy fitting that description in the first 3 rounds of the draft, if that draft class has any.
 
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charron said:
That is where we agree. But I think it takes more than 1 DT to fix it. Our 3T and RDE are still really undersized vs OL and their penetrating style makes them vulnerable to zone blocking and being taken out of the play. Atleast in the same style defense we had been using.
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I think we would be ok on the DL as a unit if we had this one missing piece.
 
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kskboys said:
GB's D didn't come together until they found Kenny Clark. Nnadi in KC, Lotuleilei in BUFF, Brandon Williams in BALT.

Very very seldom do you see a super bowl contender w/o a good NT.

Casual fans don't see the need for NT because he doesn't put up stats.
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That’s right. It’s really odd we don’t have one because they tend to be a less expensive player because they don’t get a lot of sacks.
 
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Beaker42 said:
I think we can get 3 and possibly 4 starters on D this draft but we have to be smart.
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I agree.

I don't like trying to shoehorn positions into rounds but if it happens to fall something like....

1...CB
2....S
3....DT
3....LB

Then I can see four starters.

A third round CB would have a tough time starting right away if we go DT or LB in round one is the point.

If the safety isn't picked high he won't see the field at all in 2021.

Things will have to fall right as well as being smart about it.
 
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Verdict said:
I know that. But I’m talking about player quality for their position group generally.
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Yes, what is Aaron Donald? At 280 lbs nobody calls him a 1T tackle (acknowledging that 1T is a position, not a person) but he had 13.5 sacks last year, and the Rams were 3rd in the league in rushing yards allowed. Their "big guy in the middle", Robinson, only played in 8 games, and the Rams still were one of the best run defenses in the game.

It's about the overall defense, sure if you can get a 335-345 pounder who can pass rush and stuff the run, grab him. But is there one available in this draft?

If not don't avoid the 305 lb. 3T who can provide a pass rush....
 
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LACowboysFan1 said:
As long as the new dt can rush the passer AND stuff the run, having a "one trick pony" isn't the answer, if you have the big guy in the middle who stuffs the run but can't put pressure on the quarterback, then the quarterback will just step up or hang in the pocket and have lots of time to find open receivers.

Randy White had "officially" 52 sacks, but they didn't count sacks until 1982, he was All Pro 3 times prior to that, obviously he had sacks before that. I think the Cowboys have him at 111, if memory serves. He was one of the dual-purpose DTs. Pretty clear that was a big reason for the team's success during his years in Dallas.

If all you want is a 340-plus "fat guy" in the middle that just stands there, you aren't helping the team as much as it needs, DT-wise.

Problem is those guys aren't plentiful, if you don't get one in the first round doubtful you're going to get one at all...
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That's two different roles on the DL in a 4-3 scheme. .. John Dutton wasn't gonna give you sacks, but his specialty was to stop the run in Landry's Flex Defense.
If he couldn't do that , then yeh he becomes useless.

- I don't expect a Tony Siragusa, Pat Williams , Dave Butz, Freddie Gilbert , etc to bring pass rushing but I do expect them to play their part in helping stopping the run.
a great 1 tech helps the matter, but it takes a total team effort and performance to make the whole defense vs the run. If hat 1 tech is double team and occupying two blockers
then others on that DL and LBs have to take advantage of that double team, …

- I disagree that you have to draft a 1 tech for a 4-3 scheme in the first round. You don't usually see that unless a team is interested in a pure NT for their 3-4 scheme.
ala Vita Vea.
And reportedly the only way the Cowboys were reportedly interested in Vita Vea was he uniquely had " pass rush traits " that you don't usually see in
such a mammoth guy like that. He was viewed uniquely as a Haloti Ngata type.
 
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quickccc said:
That's two different roles on the DL in a 4-3 scheme.
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Bringing it down to the basics, in a 4-3 both the DTs have opportunities to get sacks and tackle the rusher. One isn't designated to be the pass rusher and one the run stopper, what if the running back rushes to the A gap on White's side he's not going to tackle the runner? He's going to let Dutton come across in front of the center and try to make the tackle? Or vice versa?

A DT's role in a 4-3 is to make tackles or sack the quarterback as the opportunity presents itself, whichever that is...
 
quickccc

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LACowboysFan1 said:
Bringing it down to the basics, in a 4-3 both the DTs have opportunities to get sacks and tackle the rusher. One isn't designated to be the pass rusher and one the run stopper, what if the running back rushes to the A gap on White's side he's not going to tackle the runner? He's going to let Dutton come across in front of the center and try to make the tackle? Or vice versa?

A DT's role in a 4-3 is to make tackles or sack the quarterback as the opportunity presents itself, whichever that is...
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Its a reason why there are designate the terms of 3 tech vs 1 tech when it comes to DTs roles and schemes.

- In Minnesota Kevin Williams was the interior pass rusher while Pat Williams was the run stopper. Both guys were pro bowlers but each for their own specialty.

- Fletcher Cox is the interior rusher while Tim Jurnigan was primary role is to stop the run. If you're depending upon getting rushes-sacks from a Jurnigan you're not gonna get that from him.

- When the Giants had Snack Harrison and Johnathan Hankins pair , neither one are noted pass rushers that get you 7+ sacks per year because that's not the bigger part of their game.
where they dominated was vs the run, in the interior.

- Now it is an unique and rare luxury if you can get dual DTs set pair that can bring you both elements at an exceptional level - ala Sapp/Booger duo,.. ditto with a Stubblefield/Bryant.
Why don't we see the dual set pro bowlers as mentioned ? because it's just too difficult to even get ONE very high quality interior guy. -especially when it comes to a pro bowl pass rusher
 
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quickccc said:
Its a reason why there are designate the terms of 3 tech vs 1 tech when it comes to DTs roles and schemes.
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Correct 1T, 3T etc. are positions, not players. You play a 200 lb guy just off the shoulder of the center, that doesn't make him a 1T player. He's just in the 1T position. Just because a DT is 340 lbs that doesn't make him a 1T, but he will be more effective at the 1T position, of course.

Obviously it's not that simple, if there's a 325 lb guard and a 305 lb center, it's better to have your 325 lb DT line attempt to handle the guard instead of your 305 lb DT, but that's not always possible.

My point is if you are going to put a DT at the 0, 1 or 2T position, since there will be opportunity for sacks, he needs to be able to provide some pass rush.

If you can get that guy, not easy to do...
 
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Verdict said:
I know that. But I’m talking about player quality for their position group generally.
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Ok, but the point is you don't get even close to the impact that Donald or Cox provides from a 1T.

Tomlinson is probably a top-5 1T in the league, just like Reader was last year. Neither of those guys make a lick of difference on last year's defense.
 
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charron said:
Better run defense up the middle but not by a whole lot. Scheme and the rest of our non run stopping Dline still need to be addressed.
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Oh, Dlaw is bad against the run? Funny that everyone who knows the game thinks he's one of the best run stoppers in the league.
 
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Dlaw is good but once again by himself can not do enough to overcome the undersized 3T and RDE issues. The scheme and undersized interior of the DLine have largely been the issue.
 
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Future said:
Ok, but the point is you don't get even close to the impact that Donald or Cox provides from a 1T.

Tomlinson is probably a top-5 1T in the league, just like Reader was last year. Neither of those guys make a lick of difference on last year's defense.
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I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. If you are talking about sacks, that player isn’t going to get a lot of sacks. But if you get a guy who is collapsing the pocket into the QB’s face and clogging the inside running lanes—that would make a HUGE difference in the performance of the defense.
 
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LACowboysFan1 said:
Correct 1T, 3T etc. are positions, not players. You play a 200 lb guy just off the shoulder of the center, that doesn't make him a 1T player. He's just in the 1T position. Just because a DT is 340 lbs that doesn't make him a 1T, but he will be more effective at the 1T position, of course.

Obviously it's not that simple, if there's a 325 lb guard and a 305 lb center, it's better to have your 325 lb DT line attempt to handle the guard instead of your 305 lb DT, but that's not always possible.

My point is if you are going to put a DT at the 0, 1 or 2T position, since there will be opportunity for sacks, he needs to be able to provide some pass rush.

If you can get that guy, not easy to do...
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I don’t really care so much about the pass rush from the NT or 1 Tech. Just collapse the pocket, stop the run and demand a double team. That’s what you need from that position.
 
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