25 years of roster building- what it reveals

DanTanna · Jan 21, 2021

Guys like Bobby Carpenter, Taco, Jaylon, Gregory... Crap in, crap out!

rnr_honeybadger · Jan 21, 2021

The 2009 special teams draft

CouchCoach · Jan 21, 2021

cern said:
great post, as usual, bob. unfortunately, what the cowboys, under the guidance of jerry have not done is invest in a good hc. you would think that the history of tom and jimmy would have been a good lesson. but the "do it my way" guy never got the memo.

cern, when people think of the pre-Booger Cowboys, what man's name comes to mind? It isn't Murchison.

Any man that has his ego wrapped up in his business should have somebody else running it for him. This shifted from money to ego when he saw all of the attention Jimmy was getting, he was Dallas royalty. The fans loved Jimmy and Booger? He was the man that fired Landry. And I don't really think people made the connection. If he'd kept Landry, no way the Walker deal goes down and the turnaround takes a lot longer, probably too long for Booger. The single best thing he ever did was hire Jimmy and if that was me, I'd be hanging my hat on that, not being jealous of him.

cern · Jan 21, 2021

DanTanna said:
Guys like Bobby Carpenter, Taco, Jaylon, Gregory... Crap in, crap out!

parcells drafted carpenter and he didn't work out. but bill left the team with 13 pro bowlers when he walked away. the denoument has yet to be written on jaylon and gregory. randy looked pretty good last season.

cern · Jan 21, 2021

CouchCoach said:
cern, when people think of the pre-Booger Cowboys, what man's name comes to mind? It isn't Murchison.

Any man that has his ego wrapped up in his business should have somebody else running it for him. This shifted from money to ego when he saw all of the attention Jimmy was getting, he was Dallas royalty. The fans loved Jimmy and Booger? He was the man that fired Landry. And I don't really think people made the connection. If he'd kept Landry, no way the Walker deal goes down and the turnaround takes a lot longer, probably too long for Booger. The single best thing he ever did was hire Jimmy and it that was me, I'd be hanging my hat on that, not being jealous of him.

i agree with every word you said. you can be an egotistical person and be very successful in business. jerry has proven that with his marketing and salesmanship skills with the dallas cowboys entity. but judging coaches and players is a totally different matter altogether. one which jerry never understood and seldom got right. he took the word ego to another level. obstinate. obtuse.

Bobhaze · Jan 21, 2021

CouchCoach said:
The last serious one was trying to trade up for Lynch. Even the next day, Booger was kicking himself for not beating DEN's offer of a 2nd and 3rd.

I look at Prescott and think 'what if they'd made that trade or taken Cook as they had planned'? He looks a lot better, a whole lotta mo better.

When all of the Dakbate starts happening, that is my first thought. That and the rogue's gallery between Aikman and Romo.

That is why I think Prescott is a done deal. I believe Booger thinks about where he might be if he had been successful in that trade and not settled on Dak. The saying is "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". Considering this franchise's history with QB acquisition, that wasn't a gift horse, that was the whole herd.

And consider that the Cowboys haven’t drafted a QB in the first round since Troy in 1989. Obviously influenced by the unbelievable luck they stumbled on with Romo and Dak. But think about how god awful our Cowboys would have been without those two strokes of luck.

And yet many of our fans are screaming to get rid of Dak so the Jones boys can select a first round QB. Wow. I shudder to think of how inept the Jones boys are and to think of trusting them to select a franchise QB, the most difficult position to find, is ludicrous to me. So yeah, Jerry knows he’s gotta sign Dak.

cern · Jan 21, 2021

Bobhaze said:
And consider that the Cowboys haven’t drafted a QB in the first round since Troy in 1989. Obviously influenced by the unbelievable luck they stumbled on with Romo and Dak. But think about how god awful our Cowboys would have been without those two strokes of luck.

And yet many of our fans are screaming to get rid of Dak so the Jones boys can select a first round QB. Wow. I shudder to think of how inept the Jones boys are and to think of trusting them to select a franchise QB, the most difficult position to find, is ludicrous to me. So yeah, Jerry knows he’s gotta sign Dak.

i believe the fault lies with the pater familias. but not his son. cap management and draft choices have both increased significantly under stephen's watch. sure there will be a miss on occasion. every tem misses. but there have been more hits than misses. poor coaching is where i put the blame. and that's been on jerry. the jury is still out on mac.

Jake · Jan 21, 2021

CouchCoach said:
The last serious one was trying to trade up for Lynch. Even the next day, Booger was kicking himself for not beating DEN's offer of a 2nd and 3rd.

I look at Prescott and think 'what if they'd made that trade or taken Cook as they had planned'? He looks a lot better, a whole lotta mo better.

When all of the Dakbate starts happening, that is my first thought. That and the rogue's gallery between Aikman and Romo.

That is why I think Prescott is a done deal. I believe Booger thinks about where he might be if he had been successful in that trade and not settled on Dak. The saying is "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". Considering this franchise's history with QB acquisition, that wasn't a gift horse, that was the whole herd.

Jerry was also mad for a while after drafting Martin, kicking himself for being talked out of Johnny Football. As late as August after that draft he was bemoaning it.

The only good QBs since Aikman were happy accidents. When he actively pursues one it's Quincy Carter, Johnny Football, Paxton Lynch, and Connor Cook. :facepalm:

InTheZone · Jan 21, 2021

Which is why CD was a wasted pick and with Dak we must absolutely have these receivers to be somewhat relevant. We expect the rest of the team to turn it around but how do we do that when receiver is the top priority to save the offense?

TwistedL0g1k · Jan 21, 2021

A better way of analyzing this would be to calculate the draft chart point value allocated to each position. Then, that allocation could be compared to other team's allocations.

Take WR for example. (I agree the team has over-allocated here BTW). The OP says the Cowboys have used 22 picks on WR's. Is this really a lot over 25 years, when the team will keep 5-6 every year? Also, there's a big difference between using a first round pick on a WR, and a mid-round pick- so it's not as simple as just counting how many picks are used at a single position, without considering the round the pick was in.

I do believe resource allocation is the root of the failure of the team. Management has made catastrophic errors allocating limited resources. Using a #4 overall pick on a RB is a glaring example.

Bobhaze · Jan 21, 2021

TwistedL0g1k said:
A better way of analyzing this would be to calculate the draft chart point value allocated to each position. Then, that allocation could be compared to other team's allocations.

Take WR for example. (I agree the team has over-allocated here BTW). The OP says the Cowboys have used 22 picks on WR's. Is this really a lot over 25 years, when the team will keep 5-6 every year? Also, there's a big difference between using a first round pick on a WR, and a mid-round pick- so it's not as simple as just counting how many picks are used at a single position, without considering the round the pick was in.

I do believe resource allocation is the root of the failure of the team. Management has made catastrophic errors allocating limited resources. Using a #4 overall pick on a RB is a glaring example.

Well said. I like to look at “premium draft picks”- rounds 1-3. In that prism, we have drafted 7 times using premium picks. But you could argue it’s more like 12 when you consider they gave up two #1s for Joey Galloway, a #1 and #3 for Roy Williams, and a #1 for Amari Cooper. That’s a ton of draft capital for a position that is arguably one of the least difficult to find production with less investment.

Bobhaze · Jan 21, 2021

rnr_honeybadger said:
The 2009 special teams draft

One of the worst drafts in not only Cowboys history- in NFL history. A literal road map on how NOT to conduct a draft. And realize that draft was led not by a rookie GM, but a cocksure man with (at that time) 20 years of experience. That’s top shelf ineptitude. And what’s amazing about Jerry is he literally has no ability to be embarrassed. In fact, he’s cocky. Which as Cowboys fans know is not well placed.

CowboysFaninHouston · Jan 21, 2021

cern said:
parcells drafted carpenter and he didn't work out. but bill left the team with 13 pro bowlers when he walked away. the denoument has yet to be written on jaylon and gregory. randy looked pretty good last season.

I did a bit of research and had posted in different threads. we have had 44 defensive draftees since 2005....and since then we have drafted 2 players we could say were impactful, Lawrence and Jones (and that's a big question if he was impactful) and we let Jones walk....the rest have been utter failure of picks....its been just as bad in getting defensive FAs...in the meantime offensively we have drafted a boat load, including UDFAs and FAs we have signed.....we are just not good in defensive evaluation and assessment. I believe its a organizational cultural thing..Jerry is a businessman. money matters to him. being in the news matters to him. jersey sales matter to him. butts in seats matter to him and offense sells. no one buys a NT jesery, but TE, WR, RB, QB sell. no one gets overly excited (except true football fanatics) about a defense giving up only 18 points, or an offense that scores 20 points. but I take a defense that allows only 18....this is a cultural issue in dallas and Jerry and his hand picked evaluator are not getting it done on the defensive side. he needs to bring an outside consultant to help him on his defensive evaluations.

CouchCoach · Jan 21, 2021

Bobhaze said:
And consider that the Cowboys haven’t drafted a QB in the first round since Troy in 1989. Obviously influenced by the unbelievable luck they stumbled on with Romo and Dak. But think about how god awful our Cowboys would have been without those two strokes of luck.

And yet many of our fans are screaming to get rid of Dak so the Jones boys can select a first round QB. Wow. I shudder to think of how inept the Jones boys are and to think of trusting them to select a franchise QB, the most difficult position to find, is ludicrous to me. So yeah, Jerry knows he’s gotta sign Dak.

And it's not like those posters are in love with Booger's picks. The entire tanking idea was because no one trusts them the lower down the ladder they pick.

Hopefully, after they sign him some of those folks can arrive at where I landed. Dak's as good as it's going to get for us. That will not keep people from picking out the best QB in this batch this time next year and talking about who they could have had.

CouchCoach · Jan 21, 2021

Jake said:
Jerry was also mad for a while after drafting Martin, kicking himself for being talked out of Johnny Football. As late as August after that draft he was bemoaning it.

The only good QBs since Aikman were happy accidents. When he actively pursues one it's Quincy Carter, Johnny Football, Paxton Lynch, and Connor Cook.

Yikes!!

I predicted Manziel would be a Cowboy in his freshman season because of the marketability and name recognition. It was the most perfect storm for the Cowboys since he bought the team. I was literally transfixed on Goodell's mouth when he came to announce it waiting to see his lips from the J for Johnny Manziel as I was certain that was happening. I think Romo was doing the same thing.

eromeopolk · Jan 21, 2021

Bobhaze said:
A quarter of a century has gone by since the Dallas Cowboys played in and won a Super Bowl. Or played in and won a conference championship game. Or even won a divisional playoff game. Perspective? Dak Prescott was 2 years old the last time that happened. Cedee Lamb wasn’t born yet. Nearly half our current roster wasn’t even born yet. Tony Romo was 15. This could go on....

But I was curious about how this organization invested its roster building capital the last 25 years. By that I mean which positions did the organization spend the most draft and trade capital to build a roster? The answer to that question reveals a big reason why this organization can’t seem to build a playoff winner.

Here are the positions this FO has spent most of its roster and draft capital on the last 25 years showing what they value most:

WR- Surprise! The Cowboys have drafted 18 WRs in the last 25 drafts, and have also used 4 number one draft picks in trades for Joey Galloway, Roy Williams, and Amari Cooper. That makes a whopping 22 draft picks used to acquire WRs!

DEs- The Cowboys have used 20 draft picks to acquire DEs the last 25 years.

LBs- The next most popular position has been LB with 18 draft picks.

CBs- Next most popular is corner backs with 13 picks.

DTs- only 11 have been drafted over 25 years, and 3 of those were in the last 2 years.

I’m not going to go position by position but the bottom two roster positions valued after P and K was also no surprise- S (only 7 drafted in 25 years) and QB (only 6)

If you want to know what an organization values, look at where they spend their roster capital. For the Cowboys the last 25 years, that position is WR. That says a lot about why we can’t seem to get over the playoff hump the last quarter century.

Here is a link I used to look up Cowboys draft history on Pro Football Reference, a free site with lots of good info. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/draft.htm

What round draft pick did Gil Brandt use on Drew Pearson? Oh. What round draft pick did Parcells use on WRs? Oh. Miles Austin is doing what now (Parcells UDFA)? Oh. TO is doing what now (Jerry's GM move)? Oh.

Jimmy Johnson drafted Alvin Harper, Kevin Williams and set up Jerry Dumbo GM Jones before he left with Jaguars all-time leading WR, Jimmy Smith. Jerry ends up passing on Randy Moss, traded 2 no.1 picks for a WR that never made a Pro Bowl (Galloway), and traded a 1st round pick for a WR who was going to get cut by an 0-16 team (Roy Williams).

What was the 1st position drafted in the 1st round of the first draft of the Dallas Cowboys? Oh.

CWR · Jan 21, 2021

big dog cowboy said:
So basically after WR's it's defense, defense and defense and they still suck.

If we came anywhere near our offensive draft success on the opposite side of the ball we'd have another couple rings.

NoLuv4Jerry · Jan 21, 2021

Bobhaze said:
If you go by what Jerry has said publicly over the years, he most values “triplets” (QB, WR, RB) and having a “War Daddy” (pass rusher) And obviously the roster numbers say he values WRs most. That pretty well sums up why we can’t seem to build the right roster.

We've had divisional playoff winning talent at QB, RB, WR and DE over the 25 years. In fact we've had enough talent on the team to have won a divisional playoff game during that span. That blemish on this franchise history is the result of staying in bed with Garrett too long....and that falls directly in Jerry's lap. He gets too emotionally invested in people/players/narratives. And his ego is beyond comprehension. Which is why he always tries to MAKE things work...that aren't working...or that is clear to everyone else will never work. We are in an endless loop with Jerry...and his son will not be any different. I get sick to my stomach thinking about it. But I just keep telling myself that it's just sports....so it is what it is.

The fact that he defends his position in the organization with "nobody want to win more than me"....just makes me turn off the TV when he is talking and go do something else.

cern · Jan 21, 2021

CowboysFaninHouston said:
I did a bit of research and had posted in different threads. we have had 44 defensive draftees since 2005....and since then we have drafted 2 players we could say were impactful, Lawrence and Jones (and that's a big question if he was impactful) and we let Jones walk....the rest have been utter failure of picks....its been just as bad in getting defensive FAs...in the meantime offensively we have drafted a boat load, including UDFAs and FAs we have signed.....we are just not good in defensive evaluation and assessment. I believe its a organizational cultural thing..Jerry is a businessman. money matters to him. being in the news matters to him. jersey sales matter to him. butts in seats matter to him and offense sells. no one buys a NT jesery, but TE, WR, RB, QB sell. no one gets overly excited (except true football fanatics) about a defense giving up only 18 points, or an offense that scores 20 points. but I take a defense that allows only 18....this is a cultural issue in dallas and Jerry and his hand picked evaluator are not getting it done on the defensive side. he needs to bring an outside consultant to help him on his defensive evaluations.

You've made many good points. But sometimes oddities come into play. Gregory has talent, but a screwed up psyche. Fa david irving could have been the league's best. But turned our to be a head case. Taco could have been something special, but again a head case. We might need to add psychological testing to our analytical repertoire.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 21, 2021

big dog cowboy said:
So basically after WR's it's defense, defense and defense and they still suck.

They don't keep em. The Cowboys will allow good Defensive Players to walk and just draft or sign more.

25 years of roster building- what it reveals

DanTanna

Original Zone Member

rnr_honeybadger

Well-Known Member

CouchCoach

cern

Well-Known Member

cern

Well-Known Member

Bobhaze

cern

Well-Known Member

Jake

Beyond tired of Jerry

InTheZone

Well-Known Member

TwistedL0g1k

Well-Known Member

Bobhaze

Bobhaze

CowboysFaninHouston

CowboysFaninDC

CouchCoach

CouchCoach

eromeopolk

Well-Known Member

CWR

Well-Known Member

NoLuv4Jerry

Well-Known Member

cern

Well-Known Member

ABQCOWBOY

Regular Joe....