Did this year settle the “if coaches or players matter more” debate

Lutonio · Feb 8, 2021

I don’t think so. I think that games can still be predicted the vast majority of the time by picking the team that has the strongest QB/Coach combo.

I have always had a ton of respect for Arians since he stepped in that year for the Colts.

CowboysFaninHouston · Feb 8, 2021

Parcells4Life said:
To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

I think Reid and Bienemy made a mistake. given their first game against Tampa, they went in the game with the same game plan, and tampa after having been burned by Hill the last time, came ready. they played deep zones in the back, taking away hill, they had him double, triple coveraged and the rest of KC recieving group didn't stop up. I was surprised Kelce didn't have a big game, he was good between the 20s but ineffective inside the 20. plus, the tampa front 4 played the game of their life. Mahomes was running for his life the whole night. I think this was coaching. Tampa coaches had a better game plan to counter what they did the last time their played.

now, with that said, it does take the right players to execute the plan...and this doesn't mean having elite players every where.

CowboyRoy · Feb 8, 2021

Parcells4Life said:
To me seeing New England in regular season, Tampa, KC in super bowl and to some extent Dallas’ offensively, it should settle the coaches over players debate since 90% of fans and the media think changing out the coaches is what’s the key to winning.

Andy Reid has been dominant the last 3 years and very good his whole career minus the last few years in Philly. But he goes up against a very good D with 3 new starters on the OL and look what happens. He is much better than 9 points and so is Mahomes but when you don’t get protection it doesn’t matter.

New England most of the world including me thought Brady was made by Belichick and it doesn’t matter who Belichick had, he’d win with anyone. Well that was proven terribly wrong and even more so after Brady and Gronk go to TB and win.

Dallas offensively was going up and down the field the first 3 weeks. Take out both tackles and the starting QB and it’s not so easy anymore.

I think there’s some coaches on the high end (Reid, Belichick) and low end (Gase) of the spectrum, but probably for the most part the separation in knowledge from the best HC to the worst is pretty small. Maybe 1-2 games at most. And while motivation matters, this isn’t college. Pros should be able to motivate themselves.

There’s outliers like Adam Gase whose players get drastically better after they leave his system like Tannehill. But most HCs got their jobs because of great success as an assistant or a HC previously so they all know football. Matt Nagys plays look really good in preseason and on paper when pro bowlers aren’t going against him trying to break them up.

But going from even just an above average starter to a backup level player is a much greater leap than any coach. I’m not saying Gase or Garrett would have won 3 Super Bowls in NE during their hay day but Jimmy Johnson didn’t win any in Miami. Bruce Arians is a pretty good coach but he’s not good enough by himself to take Tampa from where they are to a Super Bowl.

I showed that Brady is a coach on the field. It showed that with Brady coaching matters less.

But dont kid yourself.....................Reid got out coached yesterday.

kskboys · Feb 8, 2021

CowboysFaninHouston said:
I think Reid and Bienemy made a mistake. given their first game against Tampa, they went in the game with the same game plan, and tampa after having been burned by Hill the last time, came ready. they played deep zones in the back, taking away hill, they had him double, triple coveraged and the rest of KC recieving group didn't stop up. I was surprised Kelce didn't have a big game, he was good between the 20s but ineffective inside the 20. plus, the tampa front 4 played the game of their life. Mahomes was running for his life the whole night. I think this was coaching. Tampa coaches had a better game plan to counter what they did the last time their played.

now, with that said, it does take the right players to execute the plan...and this doesn't mean having elite players every where.

Yup.

And why didn't the Chiefs get in Brady's face and jam his receivers at the line? Looked to me as if the Chiefs played scared on D. They knew Brady was going to throw a pile of short passes, why didn't they even try to do something about it?

CouchCoach · Feb 8, 2021

Great coaching cannot overcome poor talent but great talent can overcome average coaching.

Reid lost the chess match because he's Reid and refuses to modify his approach. He takes it as a compliment that his team can overcome double digit deficits and doesn't take ownership of the fact that it is play calling that gets them there at the deficit.

I believe this coaching v talent has been wrongly applied to the Cowboys, while the coaching hasn't been great, the talent has been poorly evaluated and not just by the team.

DandyDon52 · Feb 8, 2021

Haimerej said:
I'll take TB's linebackers and secondary, too.

I'd say, "more physically talented." Brady is better between the ears. Mahomes is one of the best backyard footballers that's ever made it this far. But reading a defense, making the correct audible, and decisive reads is more important than being able to throw 50 yards while running to your left.

Well mahomes likes to throw to kelcy and hill, many of the playcalls, those were probably first reads.
if they are covered , and the pass rush is now closing in what can he do? try and force it in ? TB did a good job on KC receivers.
KC and andy refused to adjust, or they didnt know what to do.
I'd say, "more physically talented." ........thats what I meant
Brady is better between the ears.......yes, he is the best in that area, that why he wins so much.

DandyDon52 · Feb 8, 2021

kskboys said:
Yup.

And why didn't the Chiefs get in Brady's face and jam his receivers at the line? Looked to me as if the Chiefs played scared on D. They knew Brady was going to throw a pile of short passes, why didn't they even try to do something about it?

I think their plan was to prevent the deep balls, which they did lol, and that helped what TB was actually going to do.
TB was balanced and they could run fairly good after 1st qrt

CouchCoach · Feb 8, 2021

DandyDon52 said:
I think their plan was to prevent the deep balls, which they did lol, and that helped what TB was actually going to do.
TB was balanced and they could run fairly good after 1st qrt

Bowles outsmarted Reid by doing exactly the opposite of the book on him with the blitz and Reid did exactly what he always does.

Bowles decided Hill would not be a factor, Kelce would be kept underneath and they would give up some short runs to Mahomes. Those short runs did not get him out of his game plan, Hill. Hill had torched them for 3 TDs and 269 yards the last time they met.

What was by the numbers for Reid was 49 passes and 11 touches for Davis-Hellaire. He played right into Bowles hands. Davis-Hellaire should have gotten 3x that amount of touches and he might have been the SB MVP. Maybe Reid and Bienemy should have watched some more of Clyde's film from that 15-0 championship run in 2019? That offense didn't run off Burrow or the receivers, it ran off Clyde.

Was Reid so arrogant to think Bowles would allow a repeat showing of the worst performance by his D against one player all season? One of the poorest coached games in SB history by one of the most overrated HC's in NFL history. He's an OC.

CowboysFaninHouston · Feb 8, 2021

kskboys said:
Yup.

And why didn't the Chiefs get in Brady's face and jam his receivers at the line? Looked to me as if the Chiefs played scared on D. They knew Brady was going to throw a pile of short passes, why didn't they even try to do something about it?

their front 4 isn't as good as tampa and Tamp played like they did the last time. except KC offense didn't score this time around. they also got frustrated and committed stupid penalties. Tampa went deep a few times although they didn't complete those passes, there was a purpose and it was to force KC having to play those deep passes and free up the middle of the field for TEs. They didn't do this the last game they played.....

you can jam receivers, but you can't tackle them. They went to TEs a lot, specially gronk, which is why they brought him to tampa, for this very game in the first place. they also had a lot of dump off to RBs, their receivers only had 6 catches for 53 yards. the rest was RBs and TEs. Plus their running game was working which was the other key for them, and the KC front 7 had to attack the line and the TEs were sneaking behind the LBs and in front of the Safeties and Brady being Brady was hitting them in stride.

CouchCoach · Feb 8, 2021

That was the game for all the trench warfare fans, that was all about will and the TB OL and DL forced their will on KC and played physical legally and KC mugged the receivers and then didn't stop when it was apparent the refs were calling this one tight on the secondary's.

I really like watching a game called well by a DC that comes in with a solid plan and can't be pushed or pulled off of it. I have seen others react when Mahomes starts making his sideline runs for 1st downs and that plays right into KC's O.

It helped that Bowles had the worst performance from a D against one WR all season long and his CB have up 8 of those catches for 3 TDs when on that island against the fastest WR in the game. He gave that CB a chance to redeem himself and he gave him some help.

That TB D is a good one not really a great one. Reid needs to worry now that Bowles posted the template on how to harness that offense.

Dre11 · Feb 8, 2021

TWOK11 said:
There has never been a debate amongst those who understand the game. The Jimmies and Joes have always and will always be more important than the Xs and Os.

While great coaching can take a good team over the top, great players can win titles with bad coaching. You have never seen a great coach win a super bowl or college football championship with bad players.

Hmmmm, np folks are getting it. It's always been the players.

robertfchew · Feb 8, 2021

dmaschuck said:
Neither whoever the script has winning will win regardless of the quality of players or coaches

exactly I turned this game off cause the refs were too one sided.

robertfchew · Feb 8, 2021

kskboys said:
Yup.

And why didn't the Chiefs get in Brady's face and jam his receivers at the line? Looked to me as if the Chiefs played scared on D. They knew Brady was going to throw a pile of short passes, why didn't they even try to do something about it?

They were scared cause the refs flagged everything against their db's

joseephuss · Feb 8, 2021

Both matter. Dave Campo would not have won a SB if he were coaching the Bucs this year.

Eddie · Feb 8, 2021

It's always been about the players. Tom Landry made 5 Super Bowls ... but also went 3-13. Jimmy Johnson won 2 Super Bowls but also started 1-15. Better players made the difference.

When all things are equal, coaching is the tie breaker. But you need top tier players to win the top tier games.

How many playoff games have we won in the last 25 years ??? 3 ???

You can thank one person for that amazing record.

Eddie · Feb 8, 2021

joseephuss said:
Both matter. Dave Campo would not have won a SB if he were coaching the Bucs this year.

Campo was a good DC but was only promoted to HC because he allowed himself to be Jerry's puppet. He's not HC material.

Dre11 · Feb 8, 2021

Eddie said:
It's always been about the players. Tom Landry made 5 Super Bowls ... but also went 3-13. Jimmy Johnson won 2 Super Bowls but also started 1-15. Better players made the difference.

When all things are equal, coaching is the tie breaker. But you need top tier players to win the top tier games.

How many playoff games have we won in the last 25 years ??? 3 ???

You can thank one person for that amazing record.

There was a study done that the differenc(If you want to compare coaches) between the greatest coach and worse coach in terms of wins is 1.5 games, the biggest difference was in the talent. Us as fans of one team we usually watch every play of our team and we see all the warts of our coaches , but most would be surprised if they were able to watch other coaches as close as ours, we would see that all coaches even the great ones have those warts too, they just may be minimized by or affect the team less due to the talent on the talent. I heard Payton say this about Brees doing this for him. Just last night, hardly anybody talks about nobody killing Ried about adjustment on the oline.

TequilaCowboy · Feb 8, 2021

daboyzruleperiod said:
No. But it settled that the great Mahomes is stinkie under pressure.

All QBs are stinkie under pressure. Even the GOAT Tom Brady has looked terrible when he has been under pressure. There is no denying that at all.

T-RO · Feb 8, 2021

JBond said:
Not to mention 5 drops when Mahomes hit receivers in the hands and face mask while running for his life on a bad foot.

Very much agree. Mahomes didn't get much help yesterday from his line, his receivers, nor from the refs who kept him off the field.

Carter · Feb 9, 2021

Bruce Arians admitted multiple times that he just took a back seat this year and let Brady coach the whole damn thing.

Grumpy Bill would never say that and admit that Brady was the reason of their success (for the most part).

Still if you have a close game with evenly matched teams coaching makes the difference.

Just see last Superbowl. Andy Reid won that game on playcalling vs. Shanahans weird coaching at the end.

Did this year settle the “if coaches or players matter more” debate

Lutonio

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CowboysFaninHouston

CowboysFaninDC

CowboyRoy

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kskboys

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CouchCoach

DandyDon52

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DandyDon52

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CouchCoach

CowboysFaninHouston

CowboysFaninDC

CouchCoach

Dre11

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robertfchew

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robertfchew

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joseephuss

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Eddie

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Eddie

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Dre11

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TequilaCowboy

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T-RO

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Carter

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