Brady or Belicheat?

Pape · May 8, 2021

JJHLH1 said:
Belichick has accomplished nothing without Brady: 61-72 record and 1 playoff win. Those are the cold hard facts.

facts without context are meaningless.

lazy analysis is still lazy analysis.

Thats a Cold Hard Football Fact.

JJHLH1 · May 8, 2021

Pape said:
facts without context are meaningless.

lazy analysis is still lazy analysis.

Thats a Cold Hard Football Fact.

What context are you looking for?

133 games in the NFL is a very large sample size. That’s the equivalent of over 8 full seasons. If Belichick was the greatest coach he should at least have had some success over that long period, but he didn’t because Brady wasn’t there to carry him.

1 playoff win lol.

Belichick will never win another Super Bowl.

The fact that he wanted to replace Brady with Garropolo tells us everything we need to know about his coaching ability.

atlantacowboy · May 8, 2021

Pape said:
I don't have an answer to that particular question because it cannot be answered... each and every title is a combination of many moving parts that come together to get thru the obstacles of any given nfl season...

Its frustrating to me personally because its a big picture argument and people continually want to narrow the scope... It doesn't / can't work that way because Party A and Party B are not analogous... You cant separate out what they accomplished and make a valid comparison because each did two wildly different things...

Yes you can separate out. It was literally done last year for you. Brady goes to Tampa which was a mediocre team and wins a super bowl. Belechek doesn't make the playoffs. I'm not sure the answer of who deserves the bulk of credit could be any more clear.

atlantacowboy · May 8, 2021

kskboys said:
Out of the 6 super bowls, ATL, LAR twice, and SEA would not have been won w/ a decent DC.

Two difference makers in Brady and Belly. Once again, why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

After last season, not sure how any can still say that Brady wasn't the main reason for all those super bowls in NE. Brady going to Tampa and winning a super bowl year 1 kinda puts the debate to rest. Belechek will have to win a super bowl without Brady to get back in the discussion.

atlantacowboy · May 8, 2021

kskboys said:
Yeah, but Brady doesn't win 6 w/o Belly.

IDK why people argue incessantly over this when it's blatantly obvious that it's talent meets talent.

Basically, when most teams stumble onto a talented QB, they fill their roster w/ WR's and TE's and any player on O to build the O around that QB.

The reason Belly/Brady won so much together is that Belly focused on D and the OLine. Even when the Pats D fell apart, they were generally good enough for deep playoff runs. And in those super bowls vs ATL and LAR, the D clearly won both those games. Absolutely masterful D gameplan by Belly.

How can you say Brady wouldn't win 6 without Belechek? He just won a super bowl without Belechek at age 43.

kskboys · May 9, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
How can you say Brady wouldn't win 6 without Belechek? He just won a super bowl without Belechek at age 43.

You're way oversimplifying a complicated analysis.

Brady just won a super bowl w/ a dominant D team. To turn it around, how does that prove anything?

Geez, why are you guys insisting on poor comparison analyses?

Turn the situation around and put PManning on the Pats and Brady on the Dolts, and the team super bowl stats don't change much.

Vtwin · May 9, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
Yes you can separate out. It was literally done last year for you. Brady goes to Tampa which was a mediocre team and wins a super bowl. Belechek doesn't make the playoffs. I'm not sure the answer of who deserves the bulk of credit could be any more clear.

Brady took over the 3rd ranked offense in both yards and points, and #1 in passing yards.

Hardly "mediocre".

kskboys · May 9, 2021

Vtwin said:
Brady took over the 3rd ranked offense in both yards and points, and #1 in passing yards.

Hardly "mediocre".

Don't get me wrong I was impressed w/ what Brady did last year, but he joined a very very good team and they added weapons for him. You notice he didn't join the Jets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

atlantacowboy · May 9, 2021

kskboys said:
You're way oversimplifying a complicated analysis.

Brady just won a super bowl w/ a dominant D team. To turn it around, how does that prove anything?

Geez, why are you guys insisting on poor comparison analyses?

Turn the situation around and put PManning on the Pats and Brady on the Dolts, and the team super bowl stats don't change much.

Tampa was 8th in defense last year. They were not even close to dominant. The Commanders had a better defense. Next silly argument?

Its easy to simplify b/c it was pretty much settled last year. The fact of the matter is that Brady took a 7-9 team that finished 3rd in their own division in 2019 and turned them into super bowl champs in one year.......and he did it without a TC to familiarize himself with the players and coaches. I don't think you have quite wrapped your head around the magnitude of what he accomplished last year. Until Bill wins something without Brady, the debate is over.

atlantacowboy · May 9, 2021

Vtwin said:
Brady took over the 3rd ranked offense in both yards and points, and #1 in passing yards.

Hardly "mediocre".

Tampa was 7-9 which is pretty much the definition of mediocre. Your argument is absurd or Tampa would have kept Jameis Winston. .

atlantacowboy · May 9, 2021

kskboys said:
Don't get me wrong I was impressed w/ what Brady did last year, but he joined a very very good team and they added weapons for him. You notice he didn't join the Jets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They were 7-9. How do you get they were a good team? They had some pieces just like every team in the NFL has some pieces. You going to argue that the 2019 Cowboys were a good team too?

Ghost12 · May 9, 2021

CATCH17 said:
He has 2 Superbowls with the Giants on a defensive lead team.

He made the Browns, the joke of the NfL, to a respectable franchise while he was there.

Thats just revisionist history. The Browns went to the AFCCG in 3 of the 5 years prior to Belichick’s arrival. Now they never made it to a Super Bowl, but they were in no way “the joke of the NFL”.

CATCH17 said:
He also won almost all the time when Brady was out of the lineup during Brady’s time in New England with some random QBs.

Not true. He is sub-.500 in New England without Brady starting.

CATCH17 said:
I mean Brady’s first Super Bowl? That was all about Belichick shutting down Mike Martz and the greatest show on turf and there were several playoff and Super bowl games like that.

The Patriots franchise turned around the day Brady started playing, not the day Belichick arrived.

CATCH17 · May 9, 2021

Ghost12 said:
Thats just revisionist history. The Browns went to the AFCCG in 3 of the 5 years prior to Belichick’s arrival. Now they never made it to a Super Bowl, but they were in no way “the joke of the NFL”.
Not true. He is sub-.500 in New England without Brady starting.
The Patriots franchise turned around the day Brady started playing, not the day Belichick arrived.

During the Brady era in New England he had a winning record without Tom. Maybe before and after Brady it’s worse but what I saw they still won anytime Brady was out of the lineup.

Now they’re just a bad team that even Brady proved he couldn’t win with and everyone is jumping on Belichick like he isn’t amazing.

He’s the best to ever do it.

Ghost12 · May 9, 2021

CATCH17 said:
During the Brady era in New England he had a winning record without Tom.

That’s some pretty horrendous cherry picking. The whole subject is how good is Belichick without Brady, and you have to throw out 38 games to try and make your point.

Tom Brady took over a team that was 5-13 under Belichick, so stop acting like they were already great. Brady made them Champions. The team turned around when Brady took over, not when Belichick arrived.

Vtwin · May 9, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
Tampa was 7-9 which is pretty much the definition of mediocre. Your argument is absurd or Tampa would have kept Jameis Winston. .

Calling an offense mediocre, when it ranked 3rd in points and total yards, plus 1st in passing yards, is absurd.
,
All that despite 30 interceptions, 41 turnovers and a -13 differential.

Even Jameis Winston was able to lead that stacked offense to top three production. Unfortunately, he also lead the offense to #1 in interceptions, which is why the team finished 7-9, and why the Bucs ditched him.

Think about that. Top three in points and yards, while turning the ball over more than any other team.

Sounds like a dream scenario for any good QB who doesn't throw the ball away almost twice per game.

Hell, even if that QB does throw 3 interceptions in a playoff game, the defense was good enough to bail him out.

CATCH17 · May 9, 2021

Ghost12 said:
That’s some pretty horrendous cherry picking. The whole subject is how good is Belichick without Brady, and you have to throw out 38 games to try and make your point.

Tom Brady took over a team that was 5-13 under Belichick, so stop acting like they were already great. Brady made them Champions. The team turned around when Brady took over, not when Belichick arrived.

I had never dug deeper than that stat because I have never looked it up or thought it was relevant anyways. Belichick has stopped the unstoppable numerous times. Brady is awesome but he’s won a lot of games by other teams struggling to do anything against his defense.

Most of their championships have been full team efforts and not so much Tom carrying anything.

Regardless.. Belichick is unreal as a coach and is a better coach than Brady is a QB imo.

Ghost12 · May 9, 2021

CATCH17 said:
I had never dug deeper than that stat because I have never looked it up or thought it was relevant anyways.

The discussion is how good of an HC is Bill Belichick without Tom Brady. I'd say his, you know record is quite relevant.

CATCH17 said:
Regardless.. Belichick is unreal as a coach and is a better coach than Brady is a QB imo.

Belichick without Brady: 8 years, 11 games under .500, 1 playoff win
Brady without Belichick: 1 year, 1 ring

CATCH17 · May 9, 2021

Ghost12 said:
The discussion is how good of an HC is Bill Belichick without Tom Brady. I'd say his, you know record is quite relevant.

Belichick without Brady: 8 years, 11 games under .500, 1 playoff win
Brady without Belichick: 1 year, 1 ring

Yeah he’s not that good without Brady. I can’t deny that.

I just think this Belichick is overrated is ridiculous. He’s unbelievable.

kskboys · May 9, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
Tampa was 8th in defense last year. They were not even close to dominant. The Commanders had a better defense. Next silly argument?

Its easy to simplify b/c it was pretty much settled last year. The fact of the matter is that Brady took a 7-9 team that finished 3rd in their own division in 2019 and turned them into super bowl champs in one year.......and he did it without a TC to familiarize himself with the players and coaches. I don't think you have quite wrapped your head around the magnitude of what he accomplished last year. Until Bill wins something without Brady, the debate is over.

OMG, you're oversimplifying, and than naming another argument silly!!!! Gotta tell you, ATL, that there is some funny stuff!!!!!

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

kskboys said:
OMG, you're oversimplifying, and than naming another argument silly!!!! Gotta tell you, ATL, that there is some funny stuff!!!!!

You just don't like Brady. I'm sure we could go through every season and find reasons why Brady doesn't deserve credit for this win or that win. But at the end of the day, the big picture is that he has 7 rings and 11 super bowl appearances......... the only real way to parse out how Bill and Tom would do without each other is to look and and see how they did without each other. Tom has one season away from Bill and won a super bowl. Bill has 2 seasons without Tom and didn't win anything........barely .500 last year. So, as of right now, its hard to say they deserve equal credit for the NE dynasty. Tom is in the lead.

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