Brady or Belicheat?

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

Vtwin said:
Calling an offense mediocre, when it ranked 3rd in points and total yards, plus 1st in passing yards, is absurd.
,
All that despite 30 interceptions, 41 turnovers and a -13 differential.

Even Jameis Winston was able to lead that stacked offense to top three production. Unfortunately, he also lead the offense to #1 in interceptions, which is why the team finished 7-9, and why the Bucs ditched him.

Think about that. Top three in points and yards, while turning the ball over more than any other team.

Sounds like a dream scenario for any good QB who doesn't throw the ball away almost twice per game.

Hell, even if that QB does throw 3 interceptions in a playoff game, the defense was good enough to bail him out.

I called the team mediocre. Don't put words in my mouth. So, now your argument is that "any good qb" could have gone to Tampa and done what Brady did? Ridiculous.

Brady has 7 rings and you have weak counter argument. So, How did Bill do without Brady?

Vtwin · May 10, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
I called the team mediocre. Don't put words in my mouth. So, now your argument is that "any good qb" could have gone to Tampa and done what Brady did? Ridiculous.

Brady has 7 rings and you have weak counter argument. So, How did Bill do without Brady?

How on earth, can you deny that the Bucs offense was among the very best in the league, in 2019? With one exception of course. That being the 30 interceptions, and 41 turnovers. Cut that ridiculous amount of turnovers in half, and how does that team finish? The defense was middle of the pack, statistically, How much better does the defense look if they don't have to defend against 2.5 turnovers per game. Let me say that again. 2.5 turnovers per game. The bulk of those turnovers were the result of one player. The QB. A Nick Foles or an Alex Smith could have lead that 2019 Bucs team to a winning record and the playoffs. A great QB, like Brady, gives them a better chance to go farther.

My argument is not that any good QB wins a SB with that team. Although, it is most definitely possible. My argument is that the 2019 Bucs team was a very good team that was hamstrung by a QB who gave the ball away at a rate of almost twice per game, yet still managed to lead the league in passing yards, and top three in total yards and points scored.

Two questions for you.
1) How do you explain your opinion that an offense which finished top 3 in points and total yards, and 1st in passing yards, is "mediocre"?

2) Did you watch the playoff game in which Brady threw 3 interceptions, and was completely bailed out by his defense?

Bonus question)
Why on earth would Brady, at this point in his career. choose to leave the team he built his career with, to go to a team he viewed as mediocre? You don't think the quality and potential of the team, played in to his decision to join them?

Your argument that Brady, as good as he is, single handedly turned a mediocre team in to a SB team, is ridiculous.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

Vtwin said:
How on earth, can you deny that the Bucs offense was among the very best in the league, in 2019? With one exception of course. That being the 30 interceptions, and 41 turnovers. Cut that ridiculous amount of turnovers in half, and how does that team finish? The defense was middle of the pack, statistically, How much better does the defense look if they don't have to defend against 2.5 turnovers per game. Let me say that again. 2.5 turnovers per game. The bulk of those turnovers were the result of one player. The QB. A Nick Foles or an Alex Smith could have lead that 2019 Bucs team to a winning record and the playoffs. A great QB, like Brady, gives them a better chance to go farther.

My argument is not that any good QB wins a SB with that team. Although, it is most definitely possible. My argument is that the 2019 Bucs team was a very good team that was hamstrung by a QB who gave the ball away at a rate of almost twice per game, yet still managed to lead the league in passing yards, and top three in total yards and points scored.

Two questions for you.
1) How do you explain your opinion that an offense which finished top 3 in points and total yards, and 1st in passing yards, is "mediocre"?

2) Did you watch the playoff game in which Brady threw 3 interceptions, and was completely bailed out by his defense?

Bonus question)
Why on earth would Brady, at this point in his career. choose to leave the team he built his career with, to go to a team he viewed as mediocre? You don't think the quality and potential of the team, played in to his decision to join them?

Your argument that Brady, as good as he is, single handedly turned a mediocre team in to a SB team, is ridiculous.

You might be the only person on the planet who thinks the Bucs offense was good in 2019. Turnovers lead to deficits.........and playing catch-up leads to a lot of garbage time yards and points. Its not really that much different than the 2019 Dallas Cowboys who finished 6th in offense, 11th in defense, and still couldn't win. The timing of those points and yards matter, and the stats don't account for that. An 80 yard TD drive in garbage time looks statistcally identical to an 80 yard TD drive in the first quarter of a competitive game.

My argument is that Brady went to a mediocre TEAM and lead them to a super bowl. That is not actually an argument. It is a fact.

Turk · May 10, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
You might be the only person on the planet who thinks the Bucs offense was good in 2019. Turnovers lead to deficits.........and playing catch-up leads to a lot of garbage time yards and points. Its not really that much different than the 2019 Dallas Cowboys who finished 6th in offense, 11th in defense, and still couldn't win. The timing of those points and yards matter, and the stats don't account for that. An 80 yard TD drive in garbage time looks statistcally identical to an 80 yard TD drive in the first quarter of a competitive game.

My argument is that Brady went to a mediocre TEAM and lead them to a super bowl. That is not actually an argument. It is a fact.

anyone stupid enough to claim their opinion is a fact is not worth responding to.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

Turk said:
anyone stupid enough to claim their opinion is a fact is not worth responding to.

Are you really this dumb? You gonna argue that Brady didn't win a super bowl with Tampa last year or that Tampa wasn't 7-9 the year before Brady arrived? Not sure how much more I can break that down for you. Posting and debate requires a baseline of intelligence. :facepalm:

JJHLH1 · May 10, 2021

A big part of Belichick’s legacy will be that he wanted to replace Brady with Jimmy Garropolo.

Belichick apparently thinks he can win with an average QB. His record shows that he can’t, and I don’t see that changing.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

JJHLH1 said:
A big part of Belichick’s legacy will be that he wanted to replace Brady with Jimmy Garropolo.

He apparently thinks he can win with an average QB. His record shows he can’t, and I don’t see that changing.

He tried winning with an average Qb last year. Didn't work out so well. I think Belechek can field a competitive team, but whose going to drive the ball down the field to get the win or make that perfect throw at the perfect time? Whose going to raise the level of play of that mediocre wr core?

JJHLH1 · May 10, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
He tried winning with an average Qb last year. Didn't work out so well. I think Belechek can field a competitive team, but whose going to drive the ball down the field to get the win or make that perfect throw at the perfect time? Whose going to raise the level of play of that mediocre wr core?

Exactly.

Brady had 4th quarter game-winning drives in all 6 Patriots Super Bowl victories.

It’s quite possible Belichick doesn’t have any titles without Brady.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

JJHLH1 said:
Exactly.

Brady had 4th quarter game-winning drives in all 6 Patriots Super Bowl victories.

It’s quite possible Belichick doesn’t have any titles without Brady.

Furthermore, Belechek benefitted on defense from Brady's contract discounts and the fact they rarely ever had to spend many cap dollars on the WR and RB positions. One of the fallouts of Brady and NE was the teams unwillingness to help him out with some talent on offense. NE was able to load up defense b/c Brady could still win with nobodies at RB and WR.

JJHLH1 · May 10, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
Furthermore, Belechek benefitted on defense from Brady's contract discounts and the fact they rarely ever had to spend many cap dollars on the WR and RB positions. One of the fallouts of Brady and NE was the teams unwillingness to help him out with some talent on offense. NE was able to load up defense b/c Brady could still win with nobodies at RB and WR.

Excellent point, and another reason why Belichick might not have any titles without Brady.

Belichick benefited from Brady’s unselfishness when it came to salary, and Brady’s ability to elevate average players into champions.

Brady even made Cowboys reject Danny Amendola look like a world-beater.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

JJHLH1 said:
Excellent point, and another reason why Belichick might not have any titles without Brady.

Belichick benefited from Brady’s unselfishness when it came to salary, and Brady’s ability to elevate average players into champions.

Brady even made Cowboys reject Danny Amendola look like a world-beater.

Oh yeah, , we cut him and he turns into Julian Edelman. Amazing how that works.

JJHLH1 · May 10, 2021

CATCH17 said:
I mean Brady’s first Super Bowl? That was all about Belichick shutting down Mike Martz and the greatest show on turf and there were several playoff and Super bowl games like that.

It’s worth spending 5 minutes to re-watch Brady’s game-winning drive in his first Super Bowl: ball on his own 17, no time outs, 1:21 left on the clock, score tied.

Madden says the Patriots should just play for overtime, that he doesn’t agree with them trying to score in this situation.

A few minutes later Madden says, “What Tom Brady just did gives me goosebumps.”

It’s as clutch a performance as you will see from a young QB.

CATCH17 · May 10, 2021

JJHLH1 said:
It’s worth spending 5 minutes to re-watch Brady’s game-winning drive in his first Super Bowl: ball on his own 17, no time outs, 1:21 left on the clock, score tied.

Madden says the Patriots should just play for overtime, that he doesn’t agree with them trying to score in this situation.

A few minutes later Madden says, “What Tom Brady just did gives me goosebumps.”

It’s as clutch a performance as you will see from a young QB.

Agree but are we just going to ignore how Belichick shut down the greatest show on turf all game and eventually they had to change the rules of how DBs play football because of how physical his guys got with WRs?

I mean Tom got 20 whole points that game and his game winning drive was against the Rams defense to get Adam V in field goal range.

JJHLH1 · May 10, 2021

CATCH17 said:
Agree but are we just going to ignore how Belichick shut down the greatest show on turf all game and eventually they had to change the rules of how DBs play football because of how physical his guys got with WRs?

I mean Tom got 20 whole points that game and his game winning drive was against the Rams defense to get Adam V in field goal range.

Kurt Warner passed for 365 yards and the Rams had 427 yards of offense. But Warner threw two picks and lost a fumble, and I give credit to Belichick’s defense for helping to force those turnovers.

I give more credit to Belichick for trusting Brady with the game on the line. That took real guts. He would have been second-guessed for a long time if that failed.

“With a quarterback like Brady, going for the win is not that dangerous, because he's not going to make a mistake." That’s what Belichick said after the game.

Pape · May 10, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
He tried winning with an average Qb last year. Didn't work out so well. I think Belechek can field a competitive team, but whose going to drive the ball down the field to get the win or make that perfect throw at the perfect time? Whose going to raise the level of play of that mediocre wr core?

Come on now, Cam was not even close to an average quarter back last season.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

Pape said:
Come on now, Cam was not even close to an average quarter back last season.

Cam had as little to work with as any QB in the NFL. Even if he was healthy for 16 games, he had no chance to be good or put up numbers.

Pape · May 10, 2021

atlantacowboy said:
Cam had as little to work with as any QB in the NFL. Even if he was healthy for 16 games, he had no chance to be good or put up numbers.

watch some of his play... then get back to me.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

CATCH17 said:
Agree but are we just going to ignore how Belichick shut down the greatest show on turf all game and eventually they had to change the rules of how DBs play football because of how physical his guys got with WRs?

I mean Tom got 20 whole points that game and his game winning drive was against the Rams defense to get Adam V in field goal range.

The debate isn't whether Bill is a great defensive coach. The debate is how much he would have won without Brady. Its funny how many want to have this discussion and ignore what happened back in february as if Brady taking a 7-9 team to super bowl champs in one year is somehow irrelevant to the conversation.

atlantacowboy · May 10, 2021

Pape said:
watch some of his play... then get back to me.

I watch. The Pats had bottom 3 talent at the skill positions on offense. Only Brady could have taken that offense to the playoffs. You guys have feasted for years on Brady's ability to win with less talent than most.

chagus · May 10, 2021

Turk said:
The slobbering over Brady is sickening. Put Brady under any NUMBER of coaches and he has no rings at all.

Both benefited immensely from the others presence. Now BB might be done. It is possible; pretty much every single great coach in history flamed out sooner or later. But to try and claim Brady was the major single factor just shows WHO REALLY KNOWS FOOTBALL and who is just a big mouth on the internet.

Thats true... but Brady went and won it all with the FIRST COACH he ended up with after BB. I think that says it all.

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