Brady or Belicheat?

Ghost12

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,844
Reaction score
1,785
For those of us who rely on facts:
NE went from 12-5 to 7-9 after losing Brady
TB went from 7-9 to Super Bowl Champions after getting Brady

Those are the facts, which trumps empty speculation 100% of the time.
 

Pape

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,092
Reaction score
597
I watch. The Pats had bottom 3 talent at the skill positions on offense. Only Brady could have taken that offense to the playoffs. You guys have feasted for years on Brady's ability to win with less talent than most.

You watched and came away with the opinion Cam was an average player? There is something fundamentally wrong with how you eval talent.

The skill positions were not the best,but that a red herring here... The was Cam played was just plain bad...The offense was continually run to the left because he couldn't throw to the right... There were whole games where he didnt throw the ball to the right side of the field... And mid range pass was tanked into the ground... it was quite amazing to watch one man kill half the earthworm population in the state of Massachussetts

and yes, it is difficult to replace the best to ever play the game
 

Turk

Well-Known Member
Messages
685
Reaction score
935
For those of us who rely on facts:
NE went from 12-5 to 7-9 after losing Brady
TB went from 7-9 to Super Bowl Champions after getting Brady

Those are the facts, which trumps empty speculation 100% of the time.
Read up on cause and effect; you might learn something.

The Patriots have been on a down hill slide as regards talent for several years. While the Bucs were going up.
Brady was a very important part of that but so was Gronk and the others.

Brady picked the best time to jump ship; and picked the best place to jump to.
Never said he was not extremely cunning and calculating.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
You watched and came away with the opinion Cam was an average player? There is something fundamentally wrong with how you eval talent.

The skill positions were not the best,but that a red herring here... The was Cam played was just plain bad...The offense was continually run to the left because he couldn't throw to the right... There were whole games where he didnt throw the ball to the right side of the field... And mid range pass was tanked into the ground... it was quite amazing to watch one man kill half the earthworm population in the state of Massachussetts

and yes, it is difficult to replace the best to ever play the game

Cam is a former MVP and now an average NFL QB. You guys had nobody to help him out on offense last year. The Pats and Eagles had the worst WR cores in the NFL. I think most QBs in the NFL would have put numbers similar to cams with the putrid offensive personnel. As the Cowboys learned with Dak Prescott, some Qbs need targets who are actually open and able to seperate.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Read up on cause and effect; you might learn something.

The Patriots have been on a down hill slide as regards talent for several years. While the Bucs were going up.
Brady was a very important part of that but so was Gronk and the others.

Brady picked the best time to jump ship; and picked the best place to jump to.
Never said he was not extremely cunning and calculating.

LOL........ your hindsight is just so perfect. I'm sure you had Brady to Tampa after 2019 b/c they were "going up".
 

Vtwin

Safety third
Messages
8,079
Reaction score
10,959
You might be the only person on the planet who thinks the Bucs offense was good in 2019. Turnovers lead to deficits.........and playing catch-up leads to a lot of garbage time yards and points. Its not really that much different than the 2019 Dallas Cowboys who finished 6th in offense, 11th in defense, and still couldn't win. The timing of those points and yards matter, and the stats don't account for that. An 80 yard TD drive in garbage time looks statistcally identical to an 80 yard TD drive in the first quarter of a competitive game.

My argument is that Brady went to a mediocre TEAM and lead them to a super bowl. That is not actually an argument. It is a fact.
Garbage yards and points? LOL

Here is a fact, for you.

The Bucs were leading or tied, at halftime, in 5 of their 9 losses.
In 2 more, they were within 7 points.


This is the problem when you take the simplistic approach of just looking at win/loss records to evaluate positions and/or units. By ignoring the details and the nuances that play into the final results you get tunnel vision, and end up not really understanding what it is you are talking about.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,054
Reaction score
46,962
Cam is a former MVP and now an average NFL QB. You guys had nobody to help him out on offense last year. The Pats and Eagles had the worst WR cores in the NFL. I think most QBs in the NFL would have put numbers similar to cams with the putrid offensive personnel. As the Cowboys learned with Dak Prescott, some Qbs need targets who are actually open and able to seperate.
Cam is far below average at this point.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,054
Reaction score
46,962
You watched and came away with the opinion Cam was an average player? There is something fundamentally wrong with how you eval talent.

The skill positions were not the best,but that a red herring here... The was Cam played was just plain bad...The offense was continually run to the left because he couldn't throw to the right... There were whole games where he didnt throw the ball to the right side of the field... And mid range pass was tanked into the ground... it was quite amazing to watch one man kill half the earthworm population in the state of Massachussetts

and yes, it is difficult to replace the best to ever play the game
Cam has always been a subpar passer who was good because he could run the ball. When injuries all but took away his running ability, you are left w/ a subpar passer. He's pretty much terrible.
 

Captain43Crash

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,297
Reaction score
7,563
You might be the only person on the planet who thinks the Bucs offense was good in 2019. Turnovers lead to deficits.........and playing catch-up leads to a lot of garbage time yards and points. Its not really that much different than the 2019 Dallas Cowboys who finished 6th in offense, 11th in defense, and still couldn't win. The timing of those points and yards matter, and the stats don't account for that. An 80 yard TD drive in garbage time looks statistcally identical to an 80 yard TD drive in the first quarter of a competitive game.

My argument is that Brady went to a mediocre TEAM and lead them to a super bowl. That is not actually an argument. It is a fact.
Your so called “facts” are not facts.

Your opinion is pretty laughable though.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Your so called “facts” are not facts.

Your opinion is pretty laughable though.

What fact are you debating? You really want to challenge that Tampa was 7-9 before Brady arrived? Or do you want to challenge that 7-9 is a mediocre record? Either would be laughable to challenge, but go ahead smart guy.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Cam is far below average at this point.

Who knows what he is? You can't judge him with the personnel NE put around him last year. He technically ranked 25th in the NFL according to PFF even with the dreck around him. My contention is that with a legit WR, TE, and maybe a run game, he could rise to 15th. Not an outlandish projection.
 

Pape

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,092
Reaction score
597
Cam is a former MVP and now an average NFL QB. You guys had nobody to help him out on offense last year. The Pats and Eagles had the worst WR cores in the NFL. I think most QBs in the NFL would have put numbers similar to cams with the putrid offensive personnel. As the Cowboys learned with Dak Prescott, some Qbs need targets who are actually open and able to seperate.

Key word: former.

And the wrs had separation. Check the next gen stats on that. He had some serious flaws in his mechanics last season. He buried a ton of balls in the ground. I get that he was trying for ball placement on those throws, but most of the time he couldn't get it to his target. All you have to do is watch. It's as clear as a cloudless day.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Key word: former.

And the wrs had separation. Check the next gen stats on that. He had some serious flaws in his mechanics last season. He buried a ton of balls in the ground. I get that he was trying for ball placement on those throws, but most of the time he couldn't get it to his target. All you have to do is watch. It's as clear as a cloudless day.

If its that clear, why did they re sign him?
 

John813

Well-Known Member
Messages
22,108
Reaction score
33,854
What fact are you debating? You really want to challenge that Tampa was 7-9 before Brady arrived? Or do you want to challenge that 7-9 is a mediocre record? Either would be laughable to challenge, but go ahead smart guy.

They were 7-9 cause Winston cost them games with his bipolar play and when he was off he gave away unforced turnovers in bunches. He was either really good or really bad. A Ryan Fitzpatrick of sorts with a stronger arm.
He nearly averaged 2 turnovers a game over a season when they went 7-9. No team can win a majority of games when their QB is that careless with the ball.



Brady = not blind= less turnovers = more wins.

Their defense in 2019 posted:

-Boasted the number one rushing defense, allowing 73.8 yards per game/3.26 yards per rush
-Allowed a total of 1,181 rushing yards on the season, which is the 11th-fewest ever allowed by a team in a 16-game season

-Accumulated the most passes defensed with 96 and most by a Buccaneer defense since 2002

-Fifth-most takeaways with 28

-16 opponent fumble recoveries tied for the second-most in the league. OLB Shaq Barrett finished with six, ranking third in the NFL

-Forced 21 fumbles, the third-most in the NFL

-Scored six defensive touchdowns, tied for the most in the NFL and was the most in a single season in Bucs history

-Four fumble returns for touchdowns, which were tied for the most in the league and were the most in a single season in Bucs history- it's also tied for the fourth-most in a single season since 1930

-Registered 47 sacks, tied for the seventh-most in the NFL and the second-most in a single season in franchise history, trailing only the 2000 team which had 55

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/top-takeaways-from-the-2019-bucs-season

They had the talent at receiver and had a capable defense. Their missing piece was a QB who could not blow games all by themselves. Tom Brady was looking to win now and saw the same thing.
 

Pape

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,092
Reaction score
597
If its that clear, why did they re sign him?

Lack of options.

who else was out there? who else would come for cheap? Andy Dalton? Teddy Bridgewater? Mariota?

sometimes it better to dance with the devil you know as a stop gap/bridge.
 

Vtwin

Safety third
Messages
8,079
Reaction score
10,959
They were 7-9 cause Winston cost them games with his bipolar play and when he was off he gave away unforced turnovers in bunches. He was either really good or really bad. A Ryan Fitzpatrick of sorts with a stronger arm.
He nearly averaged 2 turnovers a game over a season when they went 7-9. No team can win a majority of games when their QB is that careless with the ball.



Brady = not blind= less turnovers = more wins.

Their defense in 2019 posted:

-Boasted the number one rushing defense, allowing 73.8 yards per game/3.26 yards per rush
-Allowed a total of 1,181 rushing yards on the season, which is the 11th-fewest ever allowed by a team in a 16-game season

-Accumulated the most passes defensed with 96 and most by a Buccaneer defense since 2002

-Fifth-most takeaways with 28

-16 opponent fumble recoveries tied for the second-most in the league. OLB Shaq Barrett finished with six, ranking third in the NFL

-Forced 21 fumbles, the third-most in the NFL

-Scored six defensive touchdowns, tied for the most in the NFL and was the most in a single season in Bucs history

-Four fumble returns for touchdowns, which were tied for the most in the league and were the most in a single season in Bucs history- it's also tied for the fourth-most in a single season since 1930

-Registered 47 sacks, tied for the seventh-most in the NFL and the second-most in a single season in franchise history, trailing only the 2000 team which had 55

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/top-takeaways-from-the-2019-bucs-season

They had the talent at receiver and had a capable defense. Their missing piece was a QB who could not blow games all by themselves. Tom Brady was looking to win now and saw the same thing.

Quoting this so @atlantacowboy will have to ignore it twice.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Lack of options.

who else was out there? who else would come for cheap? Andy Dalton? Teddy Bridgewater? Mariota?

sometimes it better to dance with the devil you know as a stop gap/bridge.

If i've learned anything over the years its that Bill doesn't suffer players he doesn't think can compete. Nobody churns the roster more. So, obviously, the Pats have a higher opinion of him than you do.
 

atlantacowboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,076
Reaction score
24,789
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
They were 7-9 cause Winston cost them games with his bipolar play and when he was off he gave away unforced turnovers in bunches. He was either really good or really bad. A Ryan Fitzpatrick of sorts with a stronger arm.
He nearly averaged 2 turnovers a game over a season when they went 7-9. No team can win a majority of games when their QB is that careless with the ball.



Brady = not blind= less turnovers = more wins.

Their defense in 2019 posted:

-Boasted the number one rushing defense, allowing 73.8 yards per game/3.26 yards per rush
-Allowed a total of 1,181 rushing yards on the season, which is the 11th-fewest ever allowed by a team in a 16-game season

-Accumulated the most passes defensed with 96 and most by a Buccaneer defense since 2002

-Fifth-most takeaways with 28

-16 opponent fumble recoveries tied for the second-most in the league. OLB Shaq Barrett finished with six, ranking third in the NFL

-Forced 21 fumbles, the third-most in the NFL

-Scored six defensive touchdowns, tied for the most in the NFL and was the most in a single season in Bucs history

-Four fumble returns for touchdowns, which were tied for the most in the league and were the most in a single season in Bucs history- it's also tied for the fourth-most in a single season since 1930

-Registered 47 sacks, tied for the seventh-most in the NFL and the second-most in a single season in franchise history, trailing only the 2000 team which had 55

https://www.buccaneers.com/news/top-takeaways-from-the-2019-bucs-season

They had the talent at receiver and had a capable defense. Their missing piece was a QB who could not blow games all by themselves. Tom Brady was looking to win now and saw the same thing.


Wow. You really put some research into every excuse in the book. You must be a cowboy fan of the Jerrah generation.

I'll end my participation in this thread with a simple quote from Bill Parcels. " You are what your record says you are". 7-9 is 7-9 no matter the excuses.
 
Top